Bolts Placed on a Petroglyph Panel

If you are into developing for the recognition you are in it for the wrong reasons

M M wrote:

You are a true visionary Jon, scoping out that road cut 5' from a busy road was legendary and historic

Have you traveled to climb outside of Connecticut and Maine, Mike? 

Some of the most aesthetic, challenging, and well-known lines in the world are right next to roadways. Hypnotized Minds is practically on the highway and there are countless others, i.e., Joe's Valley, Yosemite, RMNP, Clear Creek Canyon, Boulder Valley, Etc. Hell, Stone Hill is literally 5' from a notoriously busy highway on the Canada/Montana border and easily outweighs any danger factor due to its proximity and/or "attention seeking" that you'd assume about my development in Maine/New Hampshire/Vermont. Stone Hill is quite literally bolted on a roadcut, but it's mega-popular and stellar.

I guess most of us enjoy climbing for climbing, rather than trolling and complaining about everything.

Jonathan Hoguewrote:

Clearly, you haven't traveled to climb in your life... Some of the most aesthetic, challenging, and well-known lines in the world are right next to roadways

Popcorn machine has been fired up

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

If you are into developing for the recognition you are in it for the wrong reasons

yes, but i sertanly deserve more recognition 

Trevr Taylrwrote:

yes, but i sertanly deserve more recognition 

Are you trying to stab us in the eyes?

I hate everything

Turn this thread has taken:

While I well know that weird thread drift is common in MP, I wish that you guys would stop this unfortunate, obviously interpersonal, side show. The OP is a very serious issue, with potentially damaging ( to the climbing community) repercussions, so we should stay focused on trying to determine what actually happened here, and figuring out ways to prevent such occurrences from repeating in the future.

Alan Rubinwrote:

While I well know that weird thread drift is common in MP, I wish that you guys would stop this unfortunate, obviously interpersonal, side show. The OP is a very serious issue, with potentially damaging ( to the climbing community) repercussions, so we should stay focused on trying to determine what actually happened here, and figuring out ways to prevent such occurrences from repeating in the future.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/200359014/thread-drift-beef-argue-here-instead-maybe

Jon Hartmannwrote:

What are the chances that some slackliners wanted a sick picture of the petroglyphs in the background of their instagram? Any chance there’s another set of bolts across the canyon? 

That’s a good point. I’d hate it if a climber did this and want to agree with others sentiments that it’s unlikely, but as a developer myself, I’ve seen some downright atrocious things. There’s a route in Bishop where someone put a 3 piece on a freestanding boulder ABOVE the route. There’s another example in CCC, Colorado (it’s even in the guidebook).

Jonathan Hoguewrote:

That’s a good point. I’d hate it if a climber did this and want to agree with others sentiments that it’s unlikely, but as a developer myself, I’ve seen some downright atrocious things. There’s a route in Bishop where someone put a 3 piece on a freestanding boulder ABOVE the route. There’s another example in CCC, Colorado (it’s even in the guidebook).

Thanks for sharing your perspective, as a developer yourself.

I, a developed, developer find this development about shitty developers doing illegal development a tragedy.

But seriously, whomever did that really did not know a damn thing about putting holes in rock.....the weird sheet metal hanger really drives home the amateur nature of this incident. Hope its found out who did this shoddy shit.

Joey Chicharroneswrote:

You’re not crazy!
Here’s the article.   

“Put it this way:, the native people soloed up and stood there for hours on end, pecking at the rock with another rock,” said Reay.

So as long as you're soloing, chipping is ok? Or is that an outdated ethic? What if you are from a contemporary remote tribe? I bet the Tarahumara in Mexico, famed for their long distance running, could get to Moab if they wanted. I also don't think they'd have much trouble coming across the border wall. It looks maybe 5.6.

“Put it this way:, the native people soloed up and stood there for hours on end, pecking at the rock with another rock,” said Reay.

It was ~1200 years ago. We don't know where the ground level was at the time. They may have been able to just walk up to the panel, without any soloing.

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

So as long as you're soloing, chipping is ok?

If it was 1200 years ago.

“Put it this way:, the native people soloed up and stood there for hours on end, pecking at the rock with another rock,” said Reay. 

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

So as long as you're soloing, chipping is ok? Or is that an outdated ethic? What if you are from a contemporary remote tribe? I bet the Tarahumara in Mexico, famed for their long distance running, could get to Moab if they wanted. I also don't think they'd have much trouble coming across the border wall. It looks maybe 5.6.

Does anyone know who the FA is? I would bet their intent is to preserve it as a free solo but if their chipping I say it's all fair game. 

If FA wants it to stay a free solo they should be the one to chop the bolt imo.

https://eveningsends.com/the-curious-case-of-a-bolted-petroglyph/

It could have used some editing, but given how little is actually known about this incident, Bisharat provided a good overview, and pushback against the media's ignorant insinuations that this was clearly climbers at fault.

Edit to below: somebody reeeaally doesn’t like Bisharat…

Jeremy Lwrote:

https://eveningsends.com/the-curious-case-of-a-bolted-petroglyph/

Edit to respond, the long winded opinion has already been reposted.

Kevin.

You have never heard of people stealing petroglyph panels?

Yes I am aware of the stealing of panels and it def still goes on sadly. But I don't think most in the archo community would not call those people petroglyph hunters or enthusiasts to avoid the semantics of it. I think most would just refer to them as criminals. Same for the ones still digging for pots and etc. I think if someone was actually caught in this incident and they claimed to be some DIYer climber or developer, most in the climbing community would probably not call them a climber either, especially, because of the nature of the hardware used and the odd location.

I actually though the author explained pretty well why it did not make sense as an environmentalist hit job to set up climbers.  

Why did you post it in the first place?

Hifno, I wrote a long winded rant on a public form, its my opinion, I am not fishing for upvotes, or approval. I stand by my opinion and I have no problem putting my real name behind it. Likewise, zero part of my day will be impacted by a stranger online telling me my opinion is cringe, I am not sure how that is hard to understand. 

Lee Chandlerwrote:

The author comes off pretty cringe and whiney, but that seems to be his thing, so no surprise. 

It seems he could have just written a stand alone article about why it was not climbers and why the coverage is unfair and it would have probably been a solid article. Instead, his ramblings about archaeology (weeks long quests to build ladders, oh boy lol), sabotaging, bolting wilderness defenders and petroglyph hunters reads more like a mountain project forum than a newsworthy article, but I guess this is what we call climbing journalism, so maybe I am just not for it. And his whole "gotcha moment" of the article where he posted the picture he found through stalking someone's Facebook of a finger touching a petroglyph panel, lol pretty cringe stuff there. You sure got them Andy, they touched a petroglyph panel, therefore, they must be willing to bolt one, lol.

His theory that rogue "petroglyph hunters" bolted a panel to get a better picture is just comical and sounds more like a claim that would be made by some anonymous account on here. First of all, the majority of his "petroglyph hunters" are old timers and retirees, I do not think they are in the habit of placing bolts on easy 5th class terrain to get better pictures. He acts like any Joe is comfortable standing on bolt studs 15 feet off the deck to take a picture of rock imagery. Likewise, he dedicates a lot of words and paragraphs to explaining how it could have been "petroglyph hunters," or "Guy" only to finish up with saying, but I am not saying it was them.

Similarly, as an active site steward, a board member of the Arizona Archaeological Society and someone who tries to be involved in as much as I can archaeologically speaking across the state, I have never heard someone use the phrase petroglyph hunter, nor have I ever heard someone refer to themselves as a petroglyph hunter. But I am glad Andy created an entire subset of people that do not exist to create a fantastical narrative of who else might have been involved in bolting the panel. In a google search of the term "petroglyph hunter" I found references to petroglyph panels with "hunters" but nothing referring to the phrase petroglyph hunter, apart from his article, which was somewhere in the middle of the first page I searched.

Andy needs to stick to complaining about Olympic climbing and climbers that use Instagram instead of speculating on archaeology and creating made up groups to push some narrative about who he thinks might have been involved in bolting that panel.

—Lee “Guy” Chandler

whiny petroglyph hunter

Edit:  awwwww, everybody is a coward?  Bless your heart

Lee Chandlerwrote:

The author comes off pretty cringe and whiney, but that seems to be his thing, so no surprise. 

It seems he could have just written a stand alone article about why it was not climbers and why the coverage is unfair and it would have probably been a solid article. Instead, his ramblings about archaeology (weeks long quests to build ladders, oh boy lol), sabotaging, bolting wilderness defenders and petroglyph hunters reads more like a mountain project forum than a newsworthy article, but I guess this is what we call climbing journalism, so maybe I am just not for it. And his whole "gotcha moment" of the article where he posted the picture he found through stalking someone's Facebook of a finger touching a petroglyph panel, lol pretty cringe stuff there. You sure got them Andy, they touched a petroglyph panel, therefore, they must be willing to bolt one, lol.

His theory that rogue "petroglyph hunters" bolted a panel to get a better picture is just comical and sounds more like a claim that would be made by some anonymous account on here. First of all, the majority of his "petroglyph hunters" are old timers and retirees, I do not think they are in the habit of placing bolts on easy 5th class terrain to get better pictures. He acts like any Joe is comfortable standing on bolt studs 15 feet off the deck to take a picture of rock imagery. Likewise, he dedicates a lot of words and paragraphs to explaining how it could have been "petroglyph hunters," or "Guy" only to finish up with saying, but I am not saying it was them.

Similarly, as an active site steward, a board member of the Arizona Archaeological Society and someone who tries to be involved in as much as I can archaeologically speaking across the state, I have never heard someone use the phrase petroglyph hunter, nor have I ever heard someone refer to themselves as a petroglyph hunter. But I am glad Andy created an entire subset of people that do not exist to create a fantastical narrative of who else might have been involved in bolting the panel. In a google search of the term "petroglyph hunter" I found references to petroglyph panels with "hunters" but nothing referring to the phrase petroglyph hunter, apart from his article, which was somewhere in the middle of the first page I searched.

Andy needs to stick to complaining about Olympic climbing and climbers that use Instagram instead of speculating on archaeology and creating made up groups to push some narrative about who he thinks might have been involved in bolting that panel.

Speaking of cringe….