Should the biner block rappel be for tag lines only?

In light of the recent tragic accident in RR, I was thinking about the utility of the biner block rappel. I’ve done a fair bit of multipitch climbing over the years and while I have used it a handful of times just to test it out, experiment, learn, etc, I’ve never been in a situation where it was necessary. 

Now, I’ve never climbed with a tag line setup and in that situation, it’s necessary. But as a method for setting up a standard double strand rappel? I’ve never encountered a situation where it was the best strategy.  The argument that it allows you to avoid bringing an ATC doesn’t seem, to me, to be worth the risk to save a couple of oz on the back of your harness.

I know we, as a community, are not out there teaching this to beginners as a go-to rappel method. Even so, I wonder if we should reconsider it as something that only* should be done when using a tag line?

*of course, this is with the caveats that multi-pitch climbing is unpredictable and sometimes you have to use some unexpected techniques to solve the problems you encounter up there. I’m not here to tell anyone what to do. I love that climbing is organic and allows for lots of independent thought and experimentation rather than having strict rules. But, I also think it’s valuable for us to have some discussion around our best practices. 

Whenever moving from one system to another one should test the new system before committing to it. For rappelling this means you should weight your rappel device every single rappel before removing the tether/PAS. There have also been deaths from people only having one strand in their ATC. 

So it seems to me that the moral of the story here isn't to rappel using one method or another, but to establish a rappelling routine that avoids all the common pitfalls and use it religiously. 

Wolfgang Devine wrote:

Now, I’ve never climbed with a tag line setup and in that situation, it’s necessary. But as a method for setting up a standard double strand rappel? I’ve never encountered a situation where it was the best strategy.  The argument that it allows you to avoid bringing an ATC doesn’t seem, to me, to be worth the risk to save a couple of oz on the back of your harness.

using a tag line is more about NOT having to carry a 2nd rope along just for the decent.  Not bringing an ATC to save ounces vs an entire extra rope is the bigger issue.

If it's a route where twins or doubles are of benefit then the argument is moot.  but 2 ropes JUST to descend...  tag line and biner block.  

Jim U wrote:

using a tag line is more about NOT having to carry a 2nd rope along just for the decent.  Not bringing an ATC to save ounces vs an entire extra rope is the bigger issue.

If it's a route where twins or doubles are of benefit then the argument is moot.  but 2 ropes JUST to descend...  tag line and biner block.  

I agree with you about the value of a tag line and there are definitely routes that, if I did them again in the current era where that’s more common, I would take a tag line rather than hauling an entire extra rope up with me. I was more referring to the use of a biner block as a method to allow rappelling on a grigri in a more common double rope rappelling situation.

The only situation that I personally would use the carabiner block/reepschnur on a single rope (no tagline) is:

• both partners are only carrying a single channel device (i.e., grigri)
• a simul rappel is not feasible whether it be due to safety, inexperienced partners, the terrain, whatever the case may be
• No tagline was brought
• No second rope was brought
• A double rope munter hitch rappel is not something either partner has practiced/is familiar with
• A carabiner brake rappel isn't possible due to lack of gear or knowledge on how to do it

With that said, if you must use this method then it makes the most sense to me to have both partners set up their devices on the load strand before either partner leaves the belay. With both partners backed up on tethers or a PAS, check each other, weight the rappel while still on the tether, then and only then does the first person begin descending. If I'm the last person going down, I will fix the rope for the first person going down to eliminate any possibility of this happening as well. 

It's also extremely easy to say all of this from the comfort of a desk chair. When you're cold, exhausted, and it's getting dark, you generally aren't at your best mentally and going with what you're familiar with is what gets chosen. 

If the point is to let ONE climber get down with just a GriGri there are better ways to accomplish it. The most straightforward is to have the climber with an ATC-style device block the rope by setting up on top and weight that device so it locks. Then the climber with the GriGri descends on a single strand to the ledge or station below. Climber with the two rope device then descends as normal.

This obviously doesn't work if both climbers are using GriGris. 

You do this when your rope gets damaged but the damage is confined to one half. It avoids a knot pass in that situation.

Teaching people reductive things like only knot block with a tag line is not as good as teaching them to evaluate whole systems and pick an appropriate one for the circumstances.

I completely agree with Ricky's take that any rap system is prone to mistakes and the most important takeaway from this horrible accident is to build in backups that will catch your inevitable errors, no matter how experienced you are. 

I'll play a bit of devil's advocate: there's nothing about a biner block that is inherently more dangerous than a regular 2-strand rap. I understand that this may not come off well after such a tragic accident because of this system, but I remember that there have been numerous accident reports of people loading their ATCs incorrectly. You're trading off the safety and convenience of rapping on a gri gri for the risk of misidentifying which strand you should be setting up on. 

Personally, when the anchors are bolted I only use a biner block for a few reasons:

1. It's significantly faster than any other system I've tried. Being able to get 2 people down a rap in <5 minutes means that even routes with 20+ raps should only take ~1.5-2 hours to rap. This is both a convenience and safety issue: the faster you get down, the less tired and erorr-prone you will be. This is why I'm a staunch believer that there's almost never any reason to risk simulrapping.

2. Single-stranding on a single rope means that when the first person down feeds the pull line into the next set of rings, the pull line becomes the next rap line and you can tie a knot right then. Idk about you but when rapping on an ATC, I rarely if ever take the time to pull up the 30-35m of rope that falls past me when I pull to tie the second knot. I tell myself I'll do it if I start approaching the ends of the rope, but obviously this is not a safe system.

3. Rapping on a Gri is so much more convenient than an ATC. Reascending is a breeze even if you're hanging in space, you don't need to futz with prussic, etc. I also find it way easier to do a full weight transfer to a Gri on my belay loop than an extended ATC. I can't tell you how many people I've watched only do a visual check on their ATC rap setup because they don't have a long enough PAS to unweight it fully. To me, that's another safety issue.

4. The biner block stays on the mid point for the entire time you're rapping, so you never risk misidentifying where the mid is. Personally I've been in a few stressful rap situations (cold, dark, etc) where you can't find the faded mid marker and are tempted to say "fuck it, the ends seem to be at the next station" - obviously not the safest idea. And again, if you're rapping 15 times the time saved not looking for a mid is significant.

As I mentioned in the other thread, the most important thing to do in any system is keep yourself backed up somehow no matter what system you use. Personally I have a Petzl adjust that I replaced the rope on so that I have enough length to unweight and stay tethered, and I do that every single time.

Ricky Harline wrote:

Whenever moving from one system to another one should test the new system before committing to it. For rappelling this means you should weight your rappel device every single rappel before removing the tether/PAS. There have also been deaths from people only having one strand in their ATC. 

So it seems to me that the moral of the story here isn't to rappel using one method or another, but to establish a rappelling routine that avoids all the common pitfalls and use it religiously. 

This 100%. Fully weight-test the new system before untethering from the prior one. A loose tether can be a PAS or a chain of quickdraws, or a few slings. Whatever you have on hand is better than not testing before committing to a new system.

Appropriate times to stay tethered while testing the new system:

• cleaning sport routes (transitioning from belayer to tether, and again when transitioning from anchor back to belayer)
• going on rappel (stay loosely clipped to rap anchor until fully weighted and tested)
• when going off rappel at a station stay on rappel until you've fully weighted the next anchor. If  at a stance and you want to get the next person moving down you can pull a few armfuls of slack through your device and keep your rap device on the rope while you are rigging the station. Weight test the station before removing your rap device.
• arriving at a belay station, weight-test your connection to the anchor before going off belay.

Ricky Harline wrote:

Whenever moving from one system to another one should test the new system before committing to it. For rappelling this means you should weight your rappel device every single rappel before removing the tether/PAS. There have also been deaths from people only having one strand in their ATC. 

So it seems to me that the moral of the story here isn't to rappel using one method or another, but to establish a rappelling routine that avoids all the common pitfalls and use it religiously. 

I highlighted this in the other thread too because I think this is the most important thing to do when rappelling. To your original statement regarding a biner block rappel. I've had to use this method multiple times in Red Rock and El Potrero where some rappels required an 80 meter rope and we only had a 70m. This method required extending one side (the rappel side) longer so you can reach the next anchor or the grown and extending the short side with whatever slings, quick draws of anchor you have on you to the pull side is long enough to grab. This technique is very useful when the rappel is just a little longer than anticipated and you have enough sling to extend the rappel side. 

To get back on track, I don't think a biner block rappel should only be used for tag lines. No matter how you rappel, there will always be a scenario that can fail and typically from user error. And because rappel failures typically happen from user error, other preventable methods should be standardized. 

If the rescue call happened at 5:30pm, they were already in the dark. Sunset is at 4:58. They had to be so cold still high on the face at that hour, I’d imagine her and her partner were suffering from hypothermia which clouded their decision making. Community pillar, is a warmer day route as you are on a NW feature which meant they were in the shade all day. The weather that day while having a promising high of 55, wasn’t as warm as one might think while on a shady aspect and there was also a steady northly (COLD) wind that day that picked up in the afternoon. CP is a physically demanding route, caloric intake is critical when it’s cold and exerting ourself.

Everyone has focused on the rappel method, but decision making in the mountains goes a lot deeper than what system we choose to use and how/when we deploy it. . They sound to be fit and capable climbers with years of experience on the stone, but one thing many forget is RR is very much so a “desert alpine experience.” That means picking objectives not just within our skillset, but also taking into account current conditions/season, adhering to strict turn around times (in my 15 yrs of Vegas climbing I have NEVER seen as many headlamps high up nightly as I do) and most importantly having our layering and nutrition dialed in so that when hour 12 comes around, we are still mentally aware and “comfortable” even if our bodies are fatigued.

My heart goes out to all and a massive thank you to the SAR volunteers involved. These selfless volunteers are extremely talented at what they do, many L3 rope access techs (highest level requiring  minimum 2000 hours of rope time logged and yrs on ropes) as well as careers as mountain guides. Many of these selfless individuals have families they kiss goodbye as they head into the dark cold night to save lives. Their strength, fortitude, and resilience is unmatched. The heroics of these individuals is humbling to be around. Thank you Red Rock SAR for all you do! 

Cosmic Hotdog wrote:

The only situation that I personally would use the carabiner block/reepschnur on a single rope (no tagline) is:

• both partners are only carrying a single channel device (i.e., grigri)

Maybe I'm old-school, but my ATC lives on a rear gear loop on my harness... that's it's place

Jay Crew wrote:

Maybe I'm old-school, but my ATC lives on a rear gear loop on my harness... that's it's place

I keep mine right next to my laminated top rope belay certification ;) 

Jay Crew wrote:

Maybe I'm old-school, but my ATC lives on a rear gear loop on my harness... that's it's place

I'm with you. I always carry both a grigri and an Alpine Up (essentially an auto locking ATC for anyone unfamiliar)

From a guy who brings only an ATC device on multi pitch climbs- A compromise of sorts is taking a 2nd rope that is way lighter and less bulky that a standard lead line.  For the last 25 years I've used a 60m "twin" 8mm rope (ice floss or similar).  It can serve as a tag line for hauling gear and packs, for standard double rope rappels, and gives you many more options in emergency situations than a "tag line".  If your lead line is stuck or damaged you can lead 30m on the doubled 8mm rope.  You can also quickly descend 400' from one anchor with the 60m lead line tied to the 8mm.  Though you will need to wrap the skinny line 1x around your waist after leaving your device to add friction and reduce the grip force needed.  

It's really not that much extra weight over a tag line, but much more peace of mind. 

To the OP. you should almost never have to change your systems up for multi pitch. find a system that works and do the same damn thing every single time. KISS.  Be methodical, be predictable, be boring. Boring is good. KISS. 

I think it's good to know multiple systems, as well as pros/cons of each application. 

There are pros and a simplicity in rappelling with a grigri or assisted braking device vs a classic tubular. We've seen plenty of accidents with the latter too, and have developed many strategies to avoid those issues, including a second hand. I don't think the recent incident can be attributed to a system error, but rather just plain human error that might have been checked through other procedures. 

We also might not know if they did have a backup tubular but opted for the grigri and block anyways, which is common and not a decision I'd take issue with. I seem to recall Community Pillar not being terribly beginner friendly with some interesting wide sections, so I'd assume a decent level of competence here. 

As mentioned, the failure is not of using the carabiner block, but not checking the system while tethered.

Rapping off the wrong strand can also happen if you join two ropes/tagline with eg. an edk with long tails, and you put a grigri or atc on the short strands. Can also happen on a single fixed line (happened on central pillar of frenzy ~2019).

I seem to recall Community Pillar not being terribly beginner friendly with some interesting wide sections

The descent itself is non-trivial, as it requires walking off, rap, more walking, and then tat raps to a ledge where you might find yourself on the wrong rap line (although I think they were all 30-35m).

Ryan Marsters wrote:

I think it's good to know multiple systems, as well as pros/cons of each application. 

There are pros and a simplicity in rappelling with a grigri or assisted braking device vs a classic tubular. We've seen plenty of accidents with the latter too, and have developed many strategies to avoid those issues, including a second hand. I don't think the recent incident can be attributed to a system error, but rather just plain human error that might have been checked through other procedures. 

We also might not know if they did have a backup tubular but opted for the grigri and block anyways, which is common and not a decision I'd take issue with. I seem to recall Community Pillar not being terribly beginner friendly with some interesting wide sections, so I'd assume a decent level of competence here. 

Correct yeah. The woman involved who passed had over 10 years of climbing experience, primarily sport. Her partner is a high 11s trad leader so between the two of them - many, many years of experience but the partner had a great deal more trad experience.

Big Red wrote:

Personally, when the anchors are bolted I only use a biner block for a few reasons:

1. It's significantly faster than any other system I've tried. Being able to get 2 people down a rap in <5 minutes means that even routes with 20+ raps should only take ~1.5-2 hours to rap. This is both a convenience and safety issue: the faster you get down, the less tired and erorr-prone you will be. This is why I'm a staunch believer that there's almost never any reason to risk simulrapping.

2. Single-stranding on a single rope means that when the first person down feeds the pull line into the next set of rings, the pull line becomes the next rap line and you can tie a knot right then. Idk about you but when rapping on an ATC, I rarely if ever take the time to pull up the 30-35m of rope that falls past me when I pull to tie the second knot. I tell myself I'll do it if I start approaching the ends of the rope, but obviously this is not a safe system.

3. Rapping on a Gri is so much more convenient than an ATC. Reascending is a breeze even if you're hanging in space, you don't need to futz with prussic, etc. I also find it way easier to do a full weight transfer to a Gri on my belay loop than an extended ATC. I can't tell you how many people I've watched only do a visual check on their ATC rap setup because they don't have a long enough PAS to unweight it fully. To me, that's another safety issue.

4. The biner block stays on the mid point for the entire time you're rapping, so you never risk misidentifying where the mid is. Personally I've been in a few stressful rap situations (cold, dark, etc) where you can't find the faded mid marker and are tempted to say "fuck it, the ends seem to be at the next station" - obviously not the safest idea. And again, if you're rapping 15 times the time saved not looking for a mid is significant.

May not apply on the terrain you climb, but the risk of the carabiner getting stuck in cracks / vegetation should be considered.