New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #33

Todd Berlier, nice! My lady and I are out at Salt Point 2-3 times a year, at least. We love that section of coast between Ft Ross and Pt Arena. I don't boulder anymore due to risk of serious injury from the most mild of falls (long story, not worth the telling). My partner does easy bouldering, I pretend to some as well. 

Just being there is magical. Nice video and nice work on those roof probs.

Cherokee Nunes wrote: My partner does easy bouldering, I pretend to some as well. 

Me too!

fossil wrote:

the mags and the gossip around your daughters gym is telling you, people might not be quite as hot as you think they are.

One of them Emil had posted is an Olympic prospect from what I casually watched on YouTube when I looked up his name.

Smith is a cool place to climb, and in my youth had climbed pretty difficult stuff on-sighting climbs a full number grade above what I had done on trad gear. It’s a great place to climb, but no longer the ONLY place.

It’s definitely sport climbing history. Really cool!

It is getting late so we will save the rostrum discussion for later, that is if you want to have it, but it is really veering of onto an entirely different subject. 

The problem I have is people wanting to push the big numbers when their bodies are clearly not prepared for it. Most people don’t want to climb for years before attempting the high numbers.

Training is a means to gauge what you can do before hitting the high numbers. If anything, do it to stay within your limits.

Todd - Very cool video! But... would it still count if I did it with my shirt on?

Jim Malone wrote:

Me too!

Cute! And super cool!

Just curious, is this a case of “climbed before I walked” in the making?   

unfortunately the Olympic climbing scene is a dog and pony show..  There is no way to have a real climbing contest on stone...  Honold won the real gold medal.. If someone was to repeat Free Rider sans rope it would simply be a tie... 

Its been cold here. Isa and I did a short XC ski last night. Her lungs are still recovering. Mine as well but I did not have as bad of an illness. one of Isa's sculptures in her woods. 

the top of the hill looking down at Isa's 200yr old farm house

this one is for Carl. My thermometer this morning. -29c 

I suspect it may have been colder than this but I took awhile to get up this morning. 

I know that rock, farther right is more to my liking lol (out of view in the pic). Dude I was there a few weeks ago and marveling at chalk on that problem. There was a logical progression of holds till... this HUGE blank section up high. I couldn't wrap my head around it. Now I see: jump, fly or die!

There was a really cool arch nearby, that had some very hard problems on it. We played around it a few times. I could see the holds but I could not touch the problem, to borrow a Pat Ament phrase.  Collapsed some time in the last 2 or 3 years.

Li Hu wrote:

One of them Emil had posted is an Olympic prospect from what I casually watched on YouTube when I looked up his name.

He's the most well known but just counting people I know personally at least half a dozen flash easy 12 all the time. Sure it's mostly sport (but not all) and this is just from my little corner of the world. As JG pointed out the number of climbers is vastly larger than it was in the past so some of that could be from more natural talent. But every one of them trains too and IMO that's a big part of it. 

Emil Briggs wrote:

He's the most well known but just counting people I know personally at least half a dozen flash easy 12 all the time. Sure it's mostly sport (but not all) and this is just from my little corner of the world. As JG pointed out the number of climbers is vastly larger than it was in the past so some of that could be from more natural talent. But every one of them trains too and IMO that's a big part of it. 

Training is surely important for the current generation of crushers, as is better knowledge on how best to train for at least certain styles of climbing. But, it isn't only training or a larger pool of potential talent, but also such things as better equipment ( especially footwear), better knowledge of technique, more widespread sources of information. There is also what I'll call the 'peer group accomplishment' factor---the 'if s/he can do it, so can I'. You see examples in climbing history of multiple members of certain groups all climbing at a level rare, or not reached, by most of their contemporaries not part of their group. A famous example was Joe Brown, Don Whillans, and their friends in the Rock and Ice Club in the UK in the early 1950s. There are also examples such as John Turner and his group from Montreal in eastern North America in the later '50s, the Stonemasters, all the way back to the Dresden climbers in the first decades of the 20th Century. Group psychology clearly plays a role in this.

Alan Rubin wrote:

Training is surely important for the current generation of crushers, as is better knowledge on how best to train for at least certain styles of climbing. But, it isn't only training or a larger pool of potential talent, but also such things as better equipment ( especially footwear), better knowledge of technique, more widespread sources of information. There is also what I'll call the 'peer group accomplishment' factor---the 'if s/he can do it, so can I'. You see examples in climbing history of multiple members of certain groups all climbing at a level rare, or not reached, by most of their contemporaries not part of their group. A famous example was Joe Brown, Don Whillans, and their friends in the Rock and Ice Club in the UK in the early 1950s. There are also examples such as John Turner and his group from Montreal in eastern North America in the later '50s, the Stonemasters, all the way back to the Dresden climbers in the first decades of the 20th Century. Group psychology clearly plays a role in this.

Good points. Gear clearly plays a role (and a pretty big one in trad climbing) as does the peer group accomplishment factor since the first step in doing something is believing you can. The history of the 4 minute mile is a good example. For a long time it seemed impossible but then once someone broke it the floodgates opened and the record is 3:43 now.

Reading through all the posts between you long-timers and pros.  There is a missing factor and I'm not sure how to name it.  I know, without hesitation, that if I climbed at a sport area, I'd be just fine hanging out with friends, and would have no problem leading.  I would not require a coach and I'm not afraid of falling.  

But in roaming and admiring of the routes that were put up here 50 years ago and that keep me scratching my head-- "Audacious" comes to mind.  "Ludicrous".  Certainly "death-defying" for many of them.  I'm still mulling over Jan's (et al) route "Dirty Tricks"... having stepped onto that rock and played for a couple of hours, all I could think was "what the fuck? There is simply no way."  And that was only a 5.11 something.   

When it comes to skill, you have to factor in the ability to handle fear, keep calm, deal with adrenaline, not to mention of course the whole trad/gear aspect.  I have yet to meet a gym rat at any of these crags.  (I'm sure there are some, but never at the lesser known routes).  

I like it here in Josh where it is too hard, too bold, too hot, too many snakes and tarantula wasps, and way too difficult for a climber like me (but the sunsets are fabulous).  I do miss the gym.  But when we talk about exercise and fitness--and I am fully back at the gym working on overall strength--you have to separate out the kind of climbing that was a risky venture just to get off the ground.  I would love to see a hot shot gym climber square off against a route like Count Dracula... where the first bolt is (somewhere around) 25 feet off the ground and the rest is STRAIGHT UP.    

pic by Josh Reinig

I know Brandt knows whereof I speak... and he is a humble master at Josh climbs.  

The latest breaking news: we have sampled the popcorn at the local Yucca Theater and the Pickford Theater in Palm Springs.  BY FAR the Yucca Theater has the best popcorn and real butter.       Lovely theater, great seats and good screens--all at half the price of PS. It just recently reopened and we want to give it our best support.   

Beautiful sunrise flying into Juneau this morning.

Lori Milas wrote:   I know, without hesitation, that if I climbed at a sport area, I'd be just fine hanging out with friends, and would have no problem leading.  I would not require a coach and I'm not afraid of falling.  

I'm going up to New Jack tomorrow to hang out with some friends. I'll pick you up around 8:00 on my way!

And by the way, I am neither humble nor master. I freely boast of my 5.8 ascents!

I agree with you on most if not all of this stuff other than Honold's solo of Free rider being from a different world. Also Kaulk and Bachar were Cali centric. Honold and Calwell did some really wild stuff in Patagonia..   the current  big guns have much higher  grade numbers but they also have  the combined knowledge and much better gear that got us here. The guys in the 50s and sixties nailing their way up  big walls with really crappy gear and  no information were just as brave but perhaps not as technically advanced..     There is something to be said for   being able to get the rope up the scary stuff..   I have pulled my weight on a few big ice climbs by leading the easier unprotected pitch while my younger partner gunned the steep pumpy pitches.  There have been  a few times I have managed to get us up a climb that  others have turned away on and informed us while we were hiking up and they were hiking down that the first pitch is not in..  that being said I would trade my occasional bouts of stupid bravery for their talent any day... 

Lori, I realize this wasn't your principal point, but if you want to test out your "if I climbed at a sport area " theory, you really don't have to travel far to do so. There are good sport routes, even moderate ones, within an easy day trip distance from JT. The Apple Valley crags, with rock very similar to JT--even a bit better in my opinion, are quite close, and New Jack City--admittedly with rock that takes a good bit of 'getting used to', is not that much further. I believe that there are now even a some sport routes at JT. It would be an interesting experiment for you. ( Edit to add:I see that Brandt had the same idea!!!).

As to your main point. While I was only a very occasional visitor to JT and other western areas, so have only limited experience there, but I  have had considerable experience in the Northeast for many years, and don't believe that in this regard there were many differences between the regions. Even BITD it was only a small handful of extremely capable climbers establishing, or even climbing, the very bold routes--and we are very fortunate to have a number of them as part of our forum. But climbing such routes was far from the 'norm' for most climbers, even at JT. It is true, though, that, in general, traditional climbers were/are more used to accepting more 'modest' runouts on routes than folks coming straight out of the gyms. So, what for one relatively average climber from the 'old school' might seem to be a very manageable distance between points of protection, could well be considered prohibitively far by someone without that background. But, it is basically a matter of experience and 'mental conditioning'--as well as honest self-evaluation, to be able to adapt to longer runouts---though the further the runout and the harder the climbing involved there are exponentially fewer who will make the commitment. That was as true then as it is now.

Al Rubin wrote:

"But, it is basically a matter of experience and 'mental conditioning'--as well as honest self-evaluation, to be able to adapt to longer runouts---though the further the runout and the harder the climbing involved there are exponentially fewer who will make the commitment. That was as true then as it is now."

Well said Al. 

Here's an excerpt from my book Rock Climbing The Art of Safe Ascent, that I cowrote with John Long:

"The first line of defense is not to fall in the first place. Fifteen pitches up a seventeen-pitch route is a heartbreaking place to bail and face a series of long, tedious rappels. But know that many accidents occur when a leader won't give up and casts off onto unknown moves with marginal control- the proverbial "going for it." 

Practice downclimbing on moderate highball problems, and develop a foundation for mental control when you need it the most. Using sound judgement- knowing when to back off- is a hallmark of a solid leader. Hubris makes us dead.”

Doug Robinson sums it up nicely in the article "The Whole Natural Art of Protection" : "Learning to climb down is valuable for retreating from a clean and bold place that gets too airy. And having the humility to back off rather than continue...a thing well begun is not lost. The experience cannot be taken away."

 "I was just climbing and never thought I needed one."
 

He was likely too scared to stop. 

You got your soul surfers and your dilettantes. I've read somewhere that today's climber averages @ 5 years in the sport. If it was about training or indoor climbing I sure wouldn't be here. 

As for that shibboleth guy, every party needs a pooper (Judas, Gollem etc.).

I read the Gripped article about older climbers too. Avoid injury, do work your strengths, if you are holding your level that's a win, and enjoy the time you have. Also, keep up typical intensity while resting more than ever. Avoid "junk" exercise. 

Lori: spy . . .

Fossil….. please stop toying with us. Post up some BITD pics I know you got the goods. I promise- if you do- I’ll go dig through my slides- up in the attic and post some.

I go to lots of places, climb whatever I can manage and watch a bunch of folks. I hardly ever see 5.12 on sight success. Lonnie Kalk OS a climb in the ORG that was 12C… about 30 people just stopped to watch him show his skills.
Beautiful skills too I might add.

I hardly ever see 13’s going down without a whole bunch of hanging etc. Shoot I hardly ever see someone really go for it and take a real fall on EZ stuff. (5.11/5.12) 

Lori…. You should take Brandt up on his offer to join in at NJC …. Some mighty fine 5.7/5.8 steep sport climbing on big holds… a lot like ladder climbing, little thinking, but you must know how fast your burning through the gas in your tank, and learn how to become an economy car, conserving strength, finding rests. You might just love it! IMHO Josh grainy face climbing gets way boring after you have done it for awhile. IIRC we started calling all those climbs “generic face”.

I was able to successfully climb a “Sierra 5.5” or a “5.8d” or a “5.10” depending on who you ask.

“the Backus Scaryain” went down Sunday. Took some effort on my part.

Later all 

I have to say that many of the routes on the Boy Scout Wall at NJC are just pure fun