Continue with onX Maps
Sign in with Facebook
Using clove when cleaning sport pitches
|
I have started to use a clove when cleaning sport pitches instead of a figure 8 on a bight, on a locker to belay loop, just easier to untie. Can anyone see anything egregiously dangerous about that? |
|
It’s been deemed more likely to cross load by some. Don’t let it cross load, I guess. Curious to hear other disadvantages. |
|
I don’t see a big no-go as long as the clove is really well dressed. Do you tie in at the end of the rope? When moving around the clove might come loose, having it near the end of the rope might become an issue. I would recommend a double bowline or bowline on a bight. Easy to tie and untie, very safe.
|
Pavel Pavelovish wrote: Theres generally a ton of extra rope, pull a bight through, clove in and then untie, about to go up i will take a picture for more context but bowline on a bight sounds like a good idea as well |
  |
|
I want to make sure that I understand what you are describing here. If this is correct, my question is, what is the benefit, and, most importantly, does the benefit outweigh the potential risks? I know that I am old and also kind of 'stick in the mud' conservative about certain climbing techniques, but do very much believe that in most climbing situations, simple is best, including following a standard routine in situations where mistakes would likely be fatal--which includes lowering from anchors. I presume that you don't tie in with a clove hitch to climb the route ( and the fact that you--or at least the vast majority of climbers--don't do so implies something....). So why would you want to change the type of tie-in knot when lowering, adding an unnecessary 'complicating factor'? Sport fixed anchors vary, and for those that require threading, you do have to untie, thread, then retie your knot ( though, depending on the size of the anchor rings, some folks will pass a bight through the rings and retie into a knot on the bight--not a clove-hitch compatible situation). However, currently, many sport anchors don't require untying at all--things such as Mussey Hooks or rams horns, so from such anchors you would be lowering and cleaning still tied in with the knot you used to lead the pitch. So why not stick with one type of knot for all climbing, lowering, and cleaning situations--again simplicity? The one benefit that you mention is that the clove hitch is easier to untie, but that is also it's biggest risk. It is one thing to tie in to the anchor with a clove at a belay stance, where you are primarily going to be relatively static, as opposed to lowering and, particularly, cleaning situations ( especially on overhanging rock) where you are very likely going to be moving around and likely 'jiggling' your knot ( one reason you don't tie in with a clove to climb) increasing the possibility that it might untie ( even with a long 'leash') or cross-load the biner. While Figure 8s can occasionally be hard to untie, that usually is after they have been fallen on rather than from just body weight, and it is, in my experience, at least, very rare that this is a major problem instead of a bit of an annoyance. As said above, if you feel this is a significant issue, than bowlines are a good alternative for both climbing and lowering. And both Figure 8s and bowlines have much less risk of 'going bad' than a clove hitch for such a purpose. |
|
I’ve never struggled to untie an overhand or eight that only took body weight. The clove is probably fine, but even as someone who uses it a lot, this doesn’t seem like the best application |
|
A clove hitch isn't an inherently secure knot and should only be used as a mid-line hitch, when there will be tension on both ends. As a rope-end hitch, it is less secure than a standard bowline. The only thing holding it together is the friction from the one strand on top. If something were to loosen that, you could very easily zip right off the end. Low probability, but still possible. Big yikes. An eight on a bight is structurally secure, meaning that it won't fail even if it gets loosened. A bowline on a bight is also secure if you clip both loops. I use a fusion knot, which is more secure than the bowline. Using a clove hitch like this seems fine until it suddenly isn't. |
|
I've been using the clove hitch like this for several years now. It has never slipped or cross loaded. If you were really worried about slippage, just tie an overhand knot after the clove. I like it. |
|
I think the OP is talking about a “floss” situation where you go into the anchor hard and then pull a loop through the rings. I seriously doubt using a clove would be a problem, though I don’t see it as better than an 8 on a bight. It still requires a locker. If you’re worried about the unloaded strand, just tie a cat knot. The risks come in when you make a mistake like tying a munter instead of a clove, forgetting to lock your carabiner or taking falls as you work portions of the climb on lower. All that seems pretty obvious to avoid. I find myself using the bowline on a bight for flossing. It doesn’t require a carabiner (when you tie a finish on the bight or clip it) and is very strong. It has disadvantages as well. It’s bulky, visually complex (harder to dress and check), slower, and requires more slack. The big advantage is that you don’t need a locker. So when you find yourself at the chains and unexpectedly need to clean, you don’t have to detach from the rope. All that said, many people learn to floss by simply going in hard, untying, threading and retying (usually with a clove clipped somewhere so they don’t drop the rope). This can be sketch if your hard attachment is bogus, but isn’t crazy if you’re moderately careful. I used to be very against flossing. Now I see it as fine where anchors receive regular updates. But I think this thread shows that a lot of people have an incomplete understanding of anchor management. I still insist that everyone learns to rappel from anchors and uses that technique where appropriate. Simply teaching noobs to floss (especIally by untying) is not safe. |
|
“Flossing…” This old fart learns something new every day. I didn’t know that’s what we were doing, but I guess it fits. Anyone know the origin of the term? (Genuinely curious.) |
|
When you untie your original knot and pull the long tail through the rings, it’s like pulling floss through your teeth? |
|
tie a loose figure 9. super easy to untie |
Kevin Mokracek wrote: Or just finish a figure 8 properly and it will be just as, or easier to untie. |
Chad Miller wrote: no |
|
I suppose Leeper hangers and 1/4 inch bolts are ok too?? It takes longer to snap a selfie than tying a knot (not a hitch) Is a marriage still tying a knot? Some cases getting hitched is the thang, is that more for SO's. Remember which knot got you to the top... |
Bb Cc wrote: It wasn’t an 8 on a bight… |
|
It seems like a bad idea. You can probably get away with it, until you don't. The consequences might be awful, or minimal. I've been sport climbing a long time and never struggled to untie an 8, even after taking some big whippers, but never ever after tying an 8 on a bight to lower off. I won't be doing it, but I'm not your mom so whatever you want to do. |
Kevin Mokracek wrote: Really? I’m 225 pounds and even when whipping on a figure 8 with a Yosemite finish I’ve never had a problem untying. |
|
Hmmm...if you have to ask if something you don't normally do is safe? Best stick to what's been working. |
Chad Miller wrote: The op said he was having issues untying an 8. I’ve always found it easier to untie a 9. I however like you have never had an issue with the 8 but if I think I might I just tie a nine and it’s always been super easy. I’ve also used a clove but when I do I use two biners just to make it easier to untie. It all depends and it good to have many tools in your toolbox, a well dressed 8 is great, a 9 can work and so can a clove. Try em all. |
