New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #33

Li Hu wrote:

I’ve just seen more people injured only climbing, and it bugs me that they still think that cause some of the best climbers in the gym claim that’s the way up to higher numbers.

Perhaps the problem with this "discussion" lies in the definition of "only climbing."  Personally, I do not consider climbing in the gym (which I regularly do twice a week), as "climbing" for the purpose of using only climbing as a training method. Moves on plastic can tend to force unnatural movement and focus stress on distinct parts of the body -- which can be a recipe for injury. In my case, all of the injuries I have suffered "climbing" have been in the gym.

Climbing a lot of routes outdoors can be a very effective way of training for climbing, but supplementing some weight training and stretching is necessary to fully round yourself out physically. 

As an "older" climber (over 70), while concerned about climbing reasonably well when climbing outside (and traveling to new climbing areas), I am more concerned with staying healthy overall and trying to ensure that my older years won't be terribly compromised.

Many studies have shown that your VO2 Max (Cardiorespiratory fitness, as measured by maximal oxygen uptake) is not only a key predictor of longevity but for quality of life. Maintaining muscle strength has also been shown to be an important factor in quality of life (mobility) and longevity - but muscle strength does not directly correlate with muscle mass. Keeping your "core" strong -- in my experience -- super important.

Both of these capacities generally degrade as we age, but the decline can be lessened through exercise (and for many people who have not been active, gains can be made).

Cycling is an excellent means of maintaining or building VO2 Max capacity, and is low impact (as long as you stay upright), which is important to us older individuals. Climbing, core work, and some weight training focused on parts of your body that may not be as strong as others is important, but you do not need to be lifting anything "heavy" to accomplish this.

As Alan and Jan stated, training and maintaining are individualistic endeavors - it all depends on your goals and your own background and physiology.  

John Gill wrote:

Kamps and I were enthusiastic no-hands boulderers. I recall us working vigorously on a five foot boulder on the edge of the Jenny Lake road, alternately keeping watch for oncoming traffic while the other worked on the problem. We took our task seriously, but we looked ridiculous to passersby. Even a local bear looked askance at us from the brush. Here is Bob doing a no-hands at Stoney Point around 1960, Rearick looking down:

Photo: Bonnie Kamps

John…. You would be surprised at all the “no hands” ethnic going on at Stoney now days.

I passed around that photo of Dolt climbing B1 no hands-but with a large rock in one hand! Within 56 seconds several of the youths were trying, and doing it! Finally “Balls Deep” did it with a big rock in each hand!

“Joe Bail” put a 55gl trash can on his back and did “Slant Rock” no hands. And Slant Rock has been Tuolumneized now with the addition of very thick, very slippery brown paint! (To cover up graffiti) 

Bobby Kamps… what can I say about him. He was our spiritual Father to all Stony climbers.
Every Tuesday and Thursday at 5 pm we would gather around boulder one. Do a few standard problems then Bob would say- “let’s go” and we would follow him off to a far corner of Stony. Bob would do a problem and we would do it, or try it - Bob always had something to point out, usually something small, seemingly insignificant that you need to do to have a better chance at getting the problem. Things like turning your head/face away so you can reach farther or drop your hip so you don’t go out of balance and the most important thing: keep your mouth right!
We have a circuit of “Bob” problems that most can’t touch.
I try to keep these problems “alive” by showing them to visitors. I know a few people who can still do them and I’m trying to get those filmed and saved for posterity. A work in progress.

A Bob story: I was climbing with him at Williamson Rock… Bob loved sport climbing and  we walked up to a spot where a bunch of 5.11 and 5.12 climbs are found. Others were there already so we sat down to wait. The party of young fit climbers who wondered- out loud- what are you old folks doing here.??? Were getting thier buttocks kicked by a 11d. They were sitting on the ground with the rope running 3/4 of the way up the climb and back to the ground- I’m sure you have all seen similar things.
Anyway Bobby rolls over to them and asked if he could “perhaps try it?” … the leader goes- “knock yourself out old man” (I shit you knot) So Bob pulls the rope (bringing cries of protest from the dudes, because they don’t know how they will get back up to the hi-point) I put him on Belay and he easily and quickly gains the hi-point, then fires the crux, getting to the next bolt he realizes he didn’t bring any draws…! So then he downclimbs the crux and removes the draw, reclimbs the crux, takes one biner from the draw and clips in then continues up to the anchor using the last biner to clip the anchor and lowers down. Those dudes didn’t know how to respond - they were in shock. Bob had an ear to ear smile- we hiked out.

I miss that man every day. And Jan - I can’t fill his shoes but I try to be a good ambassador for Stony.

Lori- I hope Tony is still improving. Your getting out is a good sign that he is though. You make your fingers tough by bouldering at Stoney Point- everyone knows that. Caused by the sandstone wearing the skin off. What grows back is tougher than what was growing before. Josh cuts your skin, what grows back is just weak scar tissue that cuts easily. My tips have no nerves remaining- I can easily crush out somebody’s cigarette cherry with my fingers- no pain.

Fossil…. It’s really great to see another silverback on this thread. Personally my belief is that if you start this “activity” later in life you have a harder time getting “fit” for it than if you start when you’re a teenager and still growing muscles naturally. I started as an old man of 20 - but I had been a football player and knew what lifting weights was all about so I was lucky.

To rebuke some of the misconceptions that have been claimed on this thread…. John Bacher lifted weights when he was young- like 16 years old. He stashed them in my garage. After Stony sessions several of us would stack iron and follow the tenants in Arnold’s book about how to isolate muscle groups and shatter them. And we did pull ups- lots of them.

Lastly- John Gills photo, doing the one arm front lever. We had a 11x17 version, Bullwinkle made it, proudly displayed right where you looked while doing pull ups. We all wanted to be as strong as “that Gill dude” … so John thanks for motivating me!!! It helped a lot.

And so Fossil - if I show up at Smith will you get the rope up for me? 

fossil wrote:

This is an old people's thread on a climbing website and if we look at the title, the only qualification that I do not meet is the "new" part. I've been trying to nudge my way in, and even though I'm no John Gill or Rich Goldstone or even a Russ Walling (probably closer to a Russ but better mannered, less recognizable) I know where a lot of the bodies are buried and with the right crowd maybe my tongue is a bit loose. We will see how it works out.

Please stay. No need to nudge, you are already in.  I value your stories, experience and opinions.

When I saw your first post here, I wondered if you are "fossil climber" from Supertopo?

I miss Smith.  I love those cracks in the lower part. I Used to go there regularly when I lived in the Bay Area, but now that I'm based in SoCal, I haven't been up there for 10 years.  It's a looong drive from here.

Ward Smith wrote:

I think that Steve Bechtel’s (Trainer and author of the book Logical Progression) definition of “training” makes sense for climbers.  “Training” is all the things that you do to help your climbing that do not require rock shoes (stretching, hangboarding, weight lifting).

 “Practice” is everything that you do with rock shoes on.  He recommends that “training” should never take up more than 25% of your climbing-related time (excluding maybe recovery from an injury), since the skill component in climbing is so high.  

I am very lucky in that I almost never get injured climbing.  I do want to add antagonistic (push) muscle training because your brain apparently limits your strength in the pull muscles if muscle imbalance is too great.  I’m starting with finger extensions to see if that helps my finger strength.

Ward, That is an interesting definition of 'training' vs 'practice' that Bechtel has. While he's a pro and I'm definitely not, but I'll have to respectfully disagree with him--though it really is only a matter of semantics. But I've seen certain 'activities' done with climbing shoes on that clearly were training rather than practice: things such as 'pyramids' ( routes or problems), 4 by 4s, climbing with weight vests, down climbing almost to the ground after each clip then back up to the next one--repeat. As I said before the only thing that really should matter is that each individual is doing something that helps them achieve their personal goals.

And Phylp, wasn't 'fossil climber' on Supertopo Wayne Merry, who I believe is now deceased.

Isa is still struggling to recover from her  bout with pneumonia and a Peruvian parasite so no sauna or ice climbing :(      I meandered over to the Lake today.. It was busy and not haveing a belay and wishing to take it easy  I headed for center Tablet. There was a party on the left side of it but plenty of room on the right. 

as is wont to happen at the lake it got steep quickly

Nice view

Willoughby Gap

went home and ran my Biathlon course and then chopped a hole in the ice

did 4 rounds

My lungs are still hurting from whatever virus I had 3 weeks ago.. 

Nick, I don’t know if you remember that two years ago I had a parasitic infection. It lasted almost a year because my doctors couldn’t identify it and when they did, they didn’t know what to prescribe. I worked my way through six different prescriptions before finding the one that worked. In the meantime, I lost about 30 pounds. Send me a message if there’s anything I can do to help. I felt like I’ve learned a lot during that miserable year. 

[[]]

I’ve been sending probs in the gym with my own sick beta, dude. Then getting elegantly and confidently with the requisite number of feet cuts and gastons to the last hold and bailing ‘because it’s too scary’.

Araps next week for the Australia Day weekend, where all the white folk feel guilty and uncomfortable even though we’d NEVER do shit like they did EVER. Serious.

My Araps plan consists of grade 9, 10 and elevens.
So?
Call me soft.
(but in a sexy voice)

Tightly Curled

by Carl

I want to live in France,

With shiny, cobbled streets,

And lampposts you can swing upon,

With damp and chilly feet. 

I want to live in Germany,

And be so gruff and stern,

My brow is always furrowed,

All of life a lesson to learn.

I want to live in England,

All wet and damp and boring,

And gaze at brooks and burrows,

Spend afternoons pictures of bunny rabbits drawing. 

I want to be a child again,

And be excited by the world,

But it’s all so dour and blasè,

I’ll remain in bed,

In a tight ball,

Tightly curled.

Nick, I hope Isa is back in the sauna soon. Is she allowed to do that without jumping through the hole in the ice first?

I don't want to belabor the point, but apparently I got off on the wrong foot back in the 1960s at COR. I found another photo where I am on top a spire I think is above the place where I had a couple of ropes hanging to grab if I got into trouble. Identify it anyone?

Randy wrote:

Perhaps the problem with this "discussion" lies in the definition of "only climbing."  Personally, I do not consider climbing in the gym (which I regularly do twice a week), as "climbing" for the purpose of using only climbing as a training method. Moves on plastic can tend to force unnatural movement and focus stress on distinct parts of the body -- which can be a recipe for injury. In my case, all of the injuries I have suffered "climbing" have been in the gym.

Agreed. It’s more likely to overdo hard gym climbs. Generally, if you miss three attempts in a session, that may be a great time to switch problems. Most people I’ve watched making their 7th or 8th attempts before getting exasperated or injured and quit for some time.

If we take on an attitude to climb as far as you can then drop before you pop, will help reduce injuries.

Many folks are “fighting time” cause they’re afraid that their project will be swapped out for another climb. They rush to attempt a problem just because the setters are getting their hex wrenches ready.

Climbing a lot of routes outdoors can be a very effective way of training for climbing, but supplementing some weight training and stretching is necessary to fully round yourself out physically.

That rounding out should include the antagonistic muscles.

As an "older" climber (over 70), while concerned about climbing reasonably well when climbing outside (and traveling to new climbing areas), I am more concerned with staying healthy overall and trying to ensure that my older years won't be terribly compromised.

Many studies have shown that your VO2 Max (Cardiorespiratory fitness, as measured by maximal oxygen uptake) is not only a key predictor of longevity but for quality of life. Maintaining muscle strength has also been shown to be an important factor in quality of life (mobility) and longevity - but muscle strength does not directly correlate with muscle mass. Keeping your "core" strong -- in my experience -- super important.

Both of these capacities generally degrade as we age, but the decline can be lessened through exercise (and for many people who have not been active, gains can be made).

Cycling is an excellent means of maintaining or building VO2 Max capacity, and is low impact (as long as you stay upright), which is important to us older individuals. Climbing, core work, and some weight training focused on parts of your body that may not be as strong as others is important, but you do not need to be lifting anything "heavy" to accomplish this.

Heavy is relative. 135 pounds to some is only 33% BW. Sounds like a lot  but it’s not if it’s only adding 33% to your total weight.

As Alan and Jan stated, training and maintaining are individualistic endeavors - it all depends on your goals and your own background and physiology.  

In retrospect, agreed.

A little late to the training discussion but here goes.  I should begin by saying I've been training (more or less) for about 65 years now, beginning with the track team in high school.  I started upper-body stuff in college, influenced by John Gill and the gymnasts I encountered in the gym.  It was all body-weight training for many years.  I decided, as a goal, that I should be able to handle my body weight on a single limb in any (actually feasible) direction of pull.  Practically, this came down to 1-arm pullups, 1-arm mantles, and pistol squats.  The climbing end was trained by traversing stone retaining walls. (Of course, there were no climbing gyms, no finger boards, and no training for climbing books.) The 1-arm mantles were the hardest.  I aspired to a 1-arm muscle-up but never succeeded or came even close.  Added to these, for amusement, were front and back levers and some handstand presses.  Gymnasts at the time were using latex surgical tubing to train iron crosses, and I adapted that for pullups, muscle-ups, and levers.

At my peak in the late 60's and 70's, I was a pretty good climber, but no better and in quite a few cases not as good as people who spent more time strictly climbing and who did little or no training.  My finger strength was ok from bouldering, but hand endurance was a limiting weakness that I could have trained much better but didn't---a rather fundamental failure of vision.  The California lads, people like Bachar and (the Workout from Hell) Long got heavily into training.  The Eastern crew, people like Bragg, Wunsch and Barber, climbed just as hard but did little or no training. At the mountaineering level, people like Steve House and Mark Twight upped the alpine game significantly, in part by dedicated training rituals that involved a lot of weight-lifting.  But when it came to pure rock climbing, if you had a pre-existing bias about the effectiveness of training, you could pick your elite climber data points and conveniently ignore the contrary evidence.

One of the things the non-trainers might have missed is the utility of training opposing muscles to eliminate injuries stemming from strength imbalances. For example, Henry, who made a point of ignoring training that wasn't actually climbing, eventually had to retire from elite climbing because of shoulder instability. There is no way to know whether some band and dumbell exercises would have kept him intact, but it does seem possible. Moreover, we don't know whether people who climb well without training might perhaps climb significantly better if they climbed just a little less but added in some targeted gym work.

As training has become more scientific, I think arguments against it have lost much of their force, and myths about bulking up without getting functional movement benefits have proved to be just that---myths, as should have been evident long ago from the successes of weight training for gymnasts.  As a counterpoint to the swole late-60-year-old example who climbs gnarly OW without training, we might cite one of the world's best OW climbers, Pamela Shanti Pack, who does a substantial amount of training, some with weights.  Here are some sample videos https://www.instagram.com/shanti.pack/reel/Cpk8rp2gCsB/, https://www.instagram.com/shanti.pack/reel/CYIavnqoEmt/, https://www.instagram.com/shanti.pack/reel/ClC6m_8AiSx/.

Once sport climbing happened and bouldering came out of the shadows, difficulties escalated rapidly, and I don't think anyone reaches elite levels now without substantial training regimens, many of which begin in the gym at pre-pubescent ages.  This filters down, and now the best efforts of my generation, which came in around 5.12 trad, are now regularly achieved by "average" climbers of all ages and genders.  I don't think this would ever have happened without training.

But there is an additional aspect of particular relevance to this group, and that is how to stay relatively mobile and strong in advancing age.  Here we are no longer speaking of anything like elite performance, in fact, at some point, the issue becomes how to slow aging-imposed decline. For example, I would say that with pulling exercises I am maybe 1/4 as strong as I was 50 years ago.  So that's a precipitous decline, but on the other hand, I'm probably in a tiny group of octagenarians who regularly do weighted pullups, (even if the weights are now 1/4 of my maximum in days of youth). There is no way I'd be doing that if I had just climbed, and I have several friends in their 70's who have, in fact, just climbed (and very well), but they aren't remotely as strong as I am at this point. They've proved they don't need the extra strength for climbing, but there might be advantages to not letting muscle strength decline with age, even if there is no immediate effect on climbing.

Where I think this is most noticeable for me is leg strength.  I assumed for most of my life that hiking and climbing were sufficient leg training.  I don't know if I'm typical or not, but that assumption has proved to be very far from accurate.  My legs are much weaker than they used to be, and if I had it to do over I would have started some weight training at least 20 years ago to supplement the hiking.  It is much harder to do that now because, in addition to having to start at almost absurdly low levels of resistance, I also have to deal with the beginnings of joint deterioration and the limitations that imposes.

I think this all started with advice about strength training for Lori.  I would divide this into two parts.  The first part is that there is now a considerable body of research indicating the benefits of strength training for old folks.  So forget about whether you will climb any better and find some sensible routines for basic lower and upper body strength---there seems to be little doubt about the benefits.  Just don't get too anal about sets and reps, because almost anything you do will have benefits, and striving to get through some predetermined regimen is a good way to get hurt. I haven't read the barbell books but suspect that there is more than you need there.  Less is more. The second part has to do with using training to get better specifically at climbing.  This might mean more leg strength for those high-step rock-overs, but also some pulling power as well as finger strength and hand endurance.  There's an abundance of information available for this, but I would caution that it is primarily designed for people at least half our age and/or the small set of older elite athletes. Once again less is more.

rgold wrote:

A little late to the training discussion but here goes.  I should begin by saying I've been training (more or less) for about 65 years now, beginning with the track team in high school.  I started upper-body stuff in college, influenced by John Gill and the gymnasts I encountered in the gym.  It was all body-weight training for many years.  I decided, as a goal, that I should be able to handle my body weight on a single limb in any (actually feasible) direction of pull.  Practically, this came down to 1-arm pullups, 1-arm mantles, and pistol squats.  The climbing end was trained by traversing stone retaining walls. (Of course, there were no climbing gyms, no finger boards, and no training for climbing books.) The 1-arm mantles were the hardest.  I aspired to a 1-arm muscle-up but never succeeded or came even close.  Added to these, for amusement, were front and back levers and some handstand presses.  Gymnasts at the time were using latex surgical tubing to train iron crosses, and I adapted that for pullups, muscle-ups, and levers.

At my peak in the late 60's and 70's, I was a pretty good climber, but no better and in quite a few cases not as good as people who spent more time strictly climbing and who did little or no training.  My finger strength was ok from bouldering, but hand endurance was a limiting weakness that I could have trained much better but didn't---a rather fundamental failure of vision.  The California lads, people like Bachar and (the Workout from Hell) Long got heavily into training.  The Eastern crew, people like Bragg, Wunsch and Barber, climbed just as hard but did little or no training. At the mountaineering level, people like Steve House and Mark Twight upped the alpine game significantly, in part by dedicated training rituals that involved a lot of weight-lifting.  But when it came to pure rock climbing, if you had a pre-existing bias about the effectiveness of training, you could pick your elite climber data points and conveniently ignore the contrary evidence.

One of the things the non-trainers might have missed is the utility of training opposing muscles to eliminate injuries stemming from strength imbalances. For example, Henry, who made a point of ignoring training that wasn't actually climbing, eventually had to retire from elite climbing because of shoulder instability. There is no way to know whether some band and dumbell exercises would have kept him intact, but it does seem possible. Moreover, we don't know whether people who climb well without training might perhaps climb significantly better if they climbed just a little less but added in some targeted gym work.

As training has become more scientific, I think arguments against it have lost much of their force, and myths about bulking up without getting functional movement benefits have proved to be just that---myths, as should have been evident long ago from the successes of weight training for gymnasts.  As a counterpoint to the swole late-60-year-old example who climbs gnarly OW without training, we might cite one of the world's best OW climbers, Pamela Shanti Pack, who does a substantial amount of training, some with weights.  Here are some sample videos https://www.instagram.com/shanti.pack/reel/Cpk8rp2gCsB/, https://www.instagram.com/shanti.pack/reel/CYIavnqoEmt/, https://www.instagram.com/shanti.pack/reel/ClC6m_8AiSx/.

Once sport climbing happened and bouldering came out of the shadows, difficulties escalated rapidly, and I don't think anyone reaches elite levels now without substantial training regimens, many of which begin in the gym at pre-pubescent ages.  This filters down, and now the best efforts of my generation, which came in around 5.12 trad, are now regularly achieved by "average" climbers of all ages and genders.  I don't think this would ever have happened without training.

But there is an additional aspect of particular relevance to this group, and that is how to stay relatively mobile and strong in advancing age.  Here we are no longer speaking of anything like elite performance, in fact, at some point, the issue becomes how to slow aging-imposed decline. For example, I would say that with pulling exercises I am maybe 1/4 as strong as I was 50 years ago.  So that's a precipitous decline, but on the other hand, I'm probably in a tiny group of octagenarians who regularly do weighted pullups, (even if the weights are now 1/4 of my maximum in days of youth). There is no way I'd be doing that if I had just climbed, and I have several friends in their 70's who have, in fact, just climbed (and very well), but they aren't remotely as strong as I am at this point. They've proved they don't need the extra strength for climbing, but there might be advantages to not letting muscle strength decline with age, even if there is no immediate effect on climbing.

Where I think this is most noticeable for me is leg strength.  I assumed for most of my life that hiking and climbing were sufficient leg training.  I don't know if I'm typical or not, but that assumption has proved to be very far from accurate.  My legs are much weaker than they used to be, and if I had it to do over I would have started some weight training at least 20 years ago to supplement the hiking.  It is much harder to do that now because, in addition to having to start at almost absurdly low levels of resistance, I also have to deal with the beginnings of joint deterioration and the limitations that imposes.

I think this all started with advice about strength training for Lori.  I would divide this into two parts.  The first part is that there is now a considerable body of research indicating the benefits of strength training for old folks.  So forget about whether you will climb any better and find some sensible routines for basic lower and upper body strength---there seems to be little doubt about the benefits.  Just don't get too anal about sets and reps, because almost anything you do will have benefits, and striving to get through some predetermined regimen is a good way to get hurt. I haven't read the barbell books but suspect that there is more than you need there.  Less is more. The second part has to do with using training to get better specifically at climbing.  This might mean more leg strength for those high-step rock-overs, but also some pulling power as well as finger strength and hand endurance.  There's an abundance of information available for this, but I would caution that it is primarily designed for people at least half our age and/or the small set of older elite athletes. Once again less is more.

Fully agree. Thank you for this detailed explanation.

Leg strength prevents injuries. Muscle mass prevent MCL and ACL tears. It’s pretty much proven to be the case that building strength in the legs for hiking can reduce injuries and enhance endurance especially backpacking on steep terrain.

I may not have a lot of educational experience, but I follow what makes sense. What you’re stating is very relatable, and I had pretty much followed John Gill’s methodology since I was a youth. It’s worked.

Fully agree again that as we age, we do less. Most people, even deniers, understand or experience age. But maximising performance when older is mostly just not getting injured. Sounds simple, but having known and watching people with detached rotator cuffs or other serious injuries still “going after it”, makes me cringe.

Climbing can be very obsessive whilst training is boring. Understanding that even as we age, we have time and a need for both.

Lori, Isa is clean from the parasite but has to rebuild her gut bacteria. The lungs are what is really giving her trouble. The doctor cleared her for sauna sans ice bath but she didn't feel up to it last night. 

rgold wrote:

Where I think this is most noticeable for me is leg strength.  I assumed for most of my life that hiking and climbing were sufficient leg training.  I don't know if I'm typical or not, but that assumption has proved to be very far from accurate.  My legs are much weaker than they used to be, and if I had it to do over I would have started some weight training at least 20 years ago to supplement the hiking.  It is much harder to do that now because, in addition to having to start at almost absurdly low levels of resistance, I also have to deal with the beginnings of joint deterioration and the limitations that imposes.

Thanks for a well written and thought out summary. On the subject of leg strength it turns out that there is research showing that leg strength declines more than upper body strength with advancing age.

"Torque, normalized torque, and power (especially at fast velocities), and muscle thickness in the lower body are affected more by aging than are upper body measures in men."

https://academic.oup.com/biomedgerontology/article-abstract/60/2/148/563279?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Well I woke up to this ^^^ gift of wisdom from Rich. Since this thread began, you have been lighting the way. Thank you for your generosity.    

I have stopped with the hand-wringing over exercise because I can feel clearly in my own body that I need both/and— training and Climbing, and it’s just a matter of finding that right amount and the right resistance. And also re-learning my own recovery rate which is different than it was when I was a kid. I am still kind of sore today from a day in the gym on Wednesday and a day of climbing on Friday.

I am supposed to climb tomorrow— can I handle that stair-master climb up Ryan Mountain today and still climb tomorrow? I don’t know!  Part of the goal is to show up at the crag ready to go and not hung over from excessive training the days prior.

Tackling the route Tarrawasi Wiggle this week it became abundantly clear that I could use much more upper body strength. The only way up was to latch my fingertips on a thin edge and pull myself up. I didn’t have nearly what I needed to do that pull up.  A life lesson. 

I really enjoyed both barbell books, but I took very seriously the advice to be trained by a competent teacher, and these exercises have to be done precisely, starting with possibly only the weight of the bar. In the meantime, I’ve come full circle and feel like the Nautilis equipment in the gym and some light weights is going to be just fine for now. Pilates and stretching are a good compliment.

I do have direct experience with working opposing muscles and I still think it’s important. When I was climbing at the gym, I injured the pulley tendons on four fingers and had them taped over almost a year.  One day I was advised to dip my hands in a bucket of rice and open my fingers to a full extension.  In no time they were healed and I never taped again.  It has been suggested to me that my chronic knee pain is due to overuse of quads and under use of opposing muscles. Anyway, certainly no harm in making sure every muscle group gets worked now and then.

Rgold, I’d sure like to know what you do now. Five years ago, you posted some training pictures, one of which was some kind of suspended plank – – I thought oh hell no! I’m not doing that! But you’re obviously extremely strong.

No reason for this picture except Todd’s mention of aretes.  I was on a different one Friday and felt like I was clinging for my life.  

I have no problem with weight training ( except that it doesn't 'grab' me personally) and agree that the research is correct in showing it's benefits ( including in slowing the effects of aging) in and of itself or as cross-training for climbing, especially for antagonist muscles. But, as one who primarily just climbs--as ' training' or 'practice', to try to delay as much as possible 'the deterioration' , and, mainly, for fun, I would be interested to know if there any any studies out there ( comparable to those on weight training) on the overall health/'anti-aging' benefits of climbing itself. I am doubtful that there are any such studies---too small a sample size, too hard to 'control' for, but would be very interested to see the results. It seems to me that climbing, especially when including approaches and descents ( both things I admittedly try to avoid these days!!!), gives one great all around exercise and one that involves more varied muscle groups ( though, of course, not all of them) than most other activities that I can think of, especially ones that are possible to continue to do at a decent level into one's more advanced years, if done appropriately. I know that when I have been in Europe, particularly on Kalymmos, I am amazed at the numbers of 'senior' climbers I see there, many of them climbing at quite high grades ( even accounting for the 'holiday grading' there, they are still objectively hard climbs) and all very fit and particularly so compared to their/our general age demographic. Maybe there have been studies such as I am enquiring about in Europe. Is anyone on here aware of any?

I think those of us who say we don't train are often omitting all the stuff we actually do that is training. Certainly in my younger years aside from buildering and bouldering I was a martial arts practitioner , student and teacher. The whole litany of training I did   for martial arts was absolutely a benefit for my climbing. I no longer practice martial arts but I do hike and run snowshoe races (pathetically) both of those things help my climbing, then there is the rubber bands and the calf raises. I still think the best training for outdoor climbing is in fact outdoor climbing providing that you can ease into it and stay consistent.  If however you like weight lifting and playing with the various machines have at it. it's all good.  I suspect the best thing you can do for your climbing other than climbing is Yoga. 

Alan Rubin wrote:

I have no problem with weight training ( except that it doesn't 'grab' me personally) and agree that the research is correct in showing it's benefits ( including in slowing the effects of aging) in and of itself or as cross-training for climbing, especially for antagonist muscles. But, as one who primarily just climbs--as ' training' or 'practice', to try to delay as much as possible 'the deterioration' , and, mainly, for fun, I would be interested to know if there any any studies out there on the overall health/'anti-aging' benefits of climbing itself. I am doubtful that there are any such studies---too small a sample size, too hard to 'control' for, but would be very interested to see the results. It seems to me that climbing, especially when including approaches and descents ( both things I admittedly try to avoid these days!!!), gives one great all around exercise and one that involves more varied muscle groups ( though, of course, not all of them) than most other activities that I can think of, especially ones that are possible to continue to do at a decent level into one's more advanced years, if done appropriately. I know that when I have been in Europe, particularly on Kalymmos, I am amazed at the numbers of 'senior' climbers I see there, many of them climbing at quite high grades ( even accounting for the 'holiday grading' there, they are still objectively hard climbs) and all very fit and particularly so compared to their/our general age demographic. Maybe there have been studies such as I am enquiring about in Europe. Is anyone on here aware of any?

I did a quick search and while there are lots of articles touting the benefits I couldn't find any high quality scientific studies. That's not to say none exist but my guess is the number of senior climbers was quite small until fairly recently so it hasn't been extensively studied.

Most of us have probably heard the advice to "train your weaknesses." So if you your technique is fairly decent, but you lack strength, some weight training would probably be very helpful. If you are already strong enough but your footwork and routefinding is sloppy, more time on the rock would seem to be the best way to go.

Of course, if you are weak and stupid like me, staying at home and watching football on TV is the best option.

John Gill wrote:

I don't want to belabor the point, but apparently I got off on the wrong foot back in the 1960s at COR. I found another photo where I am on top a spire I think is above the place where I had a couple of ropes hanging to grab if I got into trouble. Identify it anyone?

I thought maybe City Limits but with the pinyon pines its gotta be up higher.  Maybe Creekside Tower?

I can't place it.  Come on, Pizza Guy, Dave, Jay...what is this?  Almost looks like something in the Castle Rock area.

Look at the photo on page 74 of Dave's latest guide.  What's that tower to the left?  Morning Glory area?

John any idea if you were near the main road into the main City?  Or over toward Twin Sisters?  General area info...which side of the road, etc.