To recess or not recess glue-ins?

No Face wrote:

Can you explain this a little more? Do you mean that you move the drill around on the outside of the hole to make it slightly bigger and have the eye hole site against the rock more? 

I think he is likely pecking/hammering the base of the hole with the pointy end of a wall hammer to smooth/round out the radius and allow the bolt to seat just a bit deeper… easy, obvious, fast, and effective.

No Face wrote:

Can you explain this a little more? Do you mean that you move the drill around on the outside of the hole to make it slightly bigger and have the eye hole site against the rock more? 

I think what he means is he spins the drill bit around at the entrance of the bolt hole. The twist bolts, for example, have a slightly wider diameter from where the rod meets the eye. This means if it's a tight fit the eye can sit too far out from the placement.

Another method is to round out the entrance with a larger drill bit or like what I do for the 6mm twist bolts that have a 12mm diameter rod I use a 13mm drill bit. 

Depending on the hammer I am using  the pick can do this. Or just a brief hit with the drill. Of course fit check for any non-interfering bolt.

Us Black Hills climbers have switched to using Bolt Products 10mm SLBs (using AC100) w/o notching because we discovered they are removable this way, even with the variable thread pattern and angle cut end. Just a short piece of rebar and many tough rotations, they will eventually unscrew out. Has anyone else tried this? Sure, it would be nice to see the eyelet sitting tighter to the rock but I think sustainability outweighs aesthetics here. Yet to be seen how these will hold up as crux bolts at a popular sport crag, but at least we have the option to reuse the hole in the future.

it's life support equipment. You absolutely need to follow manufacturers recommendations.  that being said to notch or not depends on what the instructions on the box says... 

Maybe someone has already said this, but if the climb is steep and the bolts are going to get dogged on a bunch—best to notch n know your set up is built to last. 

Undocked Piggies wrote:

Maybe someone has already said this, but if the climb is steep and the bolts are going to get dogged on a bunch—best to notch n know your set up is built to last. 

You are trolling right?

Ok. Assuming it’s a type of bolt that can be notched or not, like the titan Eterna, it doesn’t really matter (safety/strength wise) whether or not you notch it. But it’s best to notch. There are Titanium Ushba bolts at my local cliff, Mickeys beach, placed by experts but not notched and as a result they twist a little left and right—which is unnerving though they are still bomb proof. (Niche anecdotal evidence, I know.) So best to take your time, do a good job, and leave a good product that is built to last. 

So most currently available glue ins have better methods of keying them in the glue. I expect eventually all glue ins will have that feature. If notching is not required for a given bolt type then it is certainly not better to notch.  In some cases it will only complicate the replacement of the bolt unnecessarilly. Other negatives are mentioned allready.

I think that the quality of glue is a bigger factor than has been mentioned so far.  I've placed well over 100  Bolt Product SLBs with Liquidroc 500, never notched a single one, and I just don't see them becoming clickers or spinners... But I don't know.

I would really like to see an experiment where SLBs are placed recessed/ not recessed, with pure epoxy and vinyl ester epoxy, and then twisted to see how much torque it takes to get them to rotate.

As always when installing life support equipment RTFM. You can't go wrong by following the manufacturers directions. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

As always when installing life support equipment RTFM. You can't go wrong by following the manufacturers directions. 

What if the manufacturer directions look awful?

Jim Day wrote:

I think that the quality of glue is a bigger factor than has been mentioned so far.  I've placed well over 100  Bolt Product SLBs with Liquidroc 500, never notched a single one, and I just don't see them becoming clickers or spinners... But I don't know.

I would really like to see an experiment where SLBs are placed recessed/ not recessed, with pure epoxy and vinyl ester epoxy, and then twisted to see how much torque it takes to get them to rotate.

I don't think it willl matter much honestly. The eye will likely just sheer off with either glue used. The rotation will likely not be the bolt and glue spinning, but the plastic deformation of the metal until it lets go. But with SLBs since they have basically threads, I wonder if you spin them counter clockwise you may get different result, like it unscrewing from the glue rather than sheering. Curious.

Bobby and I just sheered off some Raumer 80mm  120mm glue ins with a 3/4'5ish' breaker bar that were installed with, I think ac100, but def not  WAS epoxy (liquid rock 500). The were notched in solid granite and the rock at the notch just blew out easily. All sheered off at the same place in the hole after little over 360 of rotation....I thought the bolt was spinning in the hole at first, I was wrong.

EDIT: Bobby slapped my fallible memory back to reality.

Mr Rogers wrote:

I don't think it willl matter much honestly. The eye will likely just sheer off with either glue used. The rotation will likely not be the bolt and glue spinning, but the plastic deformation of the metal until it lets go. But with SLBs since they have basically threads, I wonder if you spin them counter clockwise you may get different result, like it unscrewing from the glue rather than sheering. Curious.

I also assumed that the eye would shear, but Chris Hirsch's comment upthread indicates that SLBs installed with AC100 can be unscrewed.

I might have to test if one of my SLBs installed with liquidroc500+ can be unscrewed.  I doubt it can, I think the eye will shear

if you do anything other than follow manufacturers instructions with life support equipment and there is a failure its on you.  Certainly when I am at work if I stick to the plans its all good. If I freelance its on me when shit breaks or leaks or pisses off the client. 

Jim Day wrote:

I also assumed that the eye would shear, but Chris Hirsch's comment upthread indicates that SLBs installed with AC100 can be unscrewed.

I might have to test if one of my SLBs installed with liquidroc500+ can be unscrewed.  I doubt it can, I think the eye will shear

completely missed Chris's post up there. SMH. So confirmed, kinda...
Interested to see how it handles the epoxy.

Nick, you're right, manufacturer's instructions should be followed. Fortunately, in the case of the Bolt Products SLBs, notching is not required and Jim Titt told us AC100 is acceptable. 

Mr Rogers wrote:

I don't think it willl matter much honestly. The eye will likely just sheer off with either glue used. The rotation will likely not be the bolt and glue spinning, but the plastic deformation of the metal until it lets go. But with SLBs since they have basically threads, I wonder if you spin them counter clockwise you may get different result, like it unscrewing from the glue rather than sheering. Curious.

Bobby and I just sheered off some Raumer 80mm  120mm glue ins with a 3/4'5ish' breaker bar that were installed with, I think ac100, but def not  WAS epoxy (liquid rock 500). The were notched in solid granite and the rock at the notch just blew out easily. All sheered off at the same place in the hole after little over 360 of rotation....I thought the bolt was spinning in the hole at first, I was wrong.

EDIT: Bobby slapped my fallible memory back to reality.

Thanks for the updates Mike and Bobby! This makes sense to me, and supports my hypothesis that liquidroc/pure epoxy is better for un-notched solid leg glue ins than ac100/ vinyl ester (as far as reducing the possibility of spinners/ clickers at least)

I'll try to refrain from overconfidence until more evidence can be gathered/ chimed in on

Do your own test and share your results Jim Day

I’d love to see it and it is indeed valuable.

Very cold in my area now or I would do it as well.

 Here’s a relevant video from Mountain Mullet

https://youtu.be/H9GTGzkzYAE?si=DBBlbK5xsmcCtmWy

I think torque tests are where epoxy shines so maybe stick to that if you’re not gonna notch. Does anyone feel the need to cover the weld with glue on 316 bolts?