LRS GG+ backup options (thread drift aversion thread)

Posting from the Silent Partner thread to avoid thread drift

Scott Melcer wrote:

I apologize if I'm diverting further from the OP's topic, but... I have a SP but want to convert to GriGri+ for the reasons Ricky mentioned. I've spent the better part of the last two weeks trying to research what to use for a backup device (knots seem too time-consuming) and have read many posts here in MP without any luck finding anyone's setup...and would love to know what you guys use. My primary goal is easy/moderate trad multi-pitch with lead rope in a backpack (because of low-angle chickenheads). I saw the post (videos) by Mr. Rogers on the USHBA (unavailable?), and have seen other mentions about fall arrest devices (e.g. Petzl ASAP) but those are not rated for skinny dynamic (maybe they do the job?). Best option I've seen so far is a second ABD (Revo, Neox, etc.) Thanks in advance!

So you're running into some issues here with how you want to run your setup. The backpack method works well with two devices, but the primary device must be one where the rope makes a straight path through the device and not one where it makes a U turn like in Grigri style devices. Here's my method. Acceptable devices for doing this are the Soloist, Taz Lov, and Trango Vergo. Then a backup device like a Revo or what have you can be implemented. 

The GG+ would work with a Revo and a microtrax (or PCD of your preference) on your harness, but the problem is that with the backpack method you would need two cache loops. First you would have to pull the rope after the backpack, then feed it through the Revo + MT, and then finally it can feed through the GG. This would be horrible. 

Here is a setup I came up with that uses the GG+ and a Revo from the LRS FB group (as of yet untested), but it is not realistically compatible with the backpack method for the reason just described.

If you want to use the backpack method there's nothing wrong with a Revo with knots (you get fast at both tying them and untying them), the El Mudo might deserve your consideration, or you might be interested in pursuing the Taz Lov or Vergo paired with the backup device of your choice. And don't use the Neox for LRS.

Ricky Harline wrote:

Posting from the Silent Partner thread to avoid thread drift

So you're running into some issues here with how you want to run your setup. The backpack method works well with two devices, but the primary device must be one where the rope makes a straight path through the device and not one where it makes a U turn like in Grigri style devices. Here's my method. Acceptable devices for doing this are the Soloist, Taz Lov, and Trango Vergo. Then a backup device like a Revo or what have you can be implemented. 

The GG+ would work with a Revo and a microtrax (or PCD of your preference) on your harness, but the problem is that with the backpack method you would need two cache loops. First you would have to pull the rope after the backpack, then feed it through the Revo + MT, and then finally it can feed through the GG. This would be horrible. 

Here is a setup I came up with that uses the GG+ and a Revo from the LRS FB group (as of yet untested), but it is not realistically compatible with the backpack method for the reason just described.

If you want to use the backpack method there's nothing wrong with a Revo with knots (you get fast at both tying them and untying them), the El Mudo might deserve your consideration, or you might be interested in pursuing the Taz Lov or Vergo paired with the backup device of your choice. And don't use the Neox for LRS.

Ricky, is the issue that a GG+ won't lock up dependably with using the backpack method? I was just watching a youtube video earlier where the guy was using a backpack, GG+ HUD, and trailing slipknots in the backpack. He had a single cache loop that came from the backup and down between his legs, which then U-turned as you described it and entered the GG. He didn't take any falls but it was otherwise a very compelling looking setup because I absolutely loathe the clove hitch cache loops (while acknowledge their safety). I've not done a multi pitch trad route yet because the multiple dangling cash loops give me major hesitation with creating rockfall or getting caught on stuff below me. Thus, the backpack method seems extremely appealing, I just haven't made time to try it yet.

I need to spend more time in the LRS FB group, I haven't seen much discussion on backpack methods in awhile.

Cosmic Hotdog wrote:

Ricky, is the issue that a GG+ won't lock up dependably with using the backpack method? I was just watching a youtube video earlier where the guy was using a backpack, GG+ HUD, and trailing slipknots in the backpack. He had a single cache loop that came from the backup and down between his legs, which then U-turned as you described it and entered the GG. He didn't take any falls but it was otherwise a very compelling looking setup because I absolutely loathe the clove hitch cache loops (while acknowledge their safety). I've not done a multi pitch trad route yet because the multiple dangling cash loops give me major hesitation with creating rockfall or getting caught on stuff below me. Thus, the backpack method seems extremely appealing, I just haven't made time to try it yet.

I need to spend more time in the LRS FB group, I haven't seen much discussion on backpack methods in awhile.

So if you want to use the GG+ with trailing stopper knots then the backpack method will work very well. It is using a secondary device as a backup wherein the problem lies, as you will have to have two cache loops, one managed by the friction in the backpack, and the other managed by the PCD of your choosing. IMO device managed cache loops are slow and the primary culprit for people not liking LRS and for having to climb so far below their normal onsight grade. Simplifying cache loops and making them less cumbersome makes LRS dramatically more quick and enjoyable, and the methods I know for doing that are either to implement a backpack or the Brent Barghan method of pre-caching with cloves.

I significantly prefer using two devices and a backpack, but this dramatically limits your device and system options. So you can either use the backpack method with the GG+ or the device managed cache loop method, but the only way to use a backpack and a second device would be to have two cache loops which sounds like an absolute nightmare. If you are happy with trailing stopper knots and a backpack then I think that's a super solid system and would absolutely work very well. 

I started out using a Revo and trailing stopper knots and did quite a few LRS pitches that way, and I was very happy with the system. Since then I've spoiled myself with two device redundancy and no knots and have no desire to go back to trailing stopper knots, but tbh I do sometimes miss the simplicity of one device and knots. 

Super helpful, thanks man - I appreciate you! All of my LRS pitches have been done with a GG+ HUD and Brent's system of clove hitch cache loops. It definitely works and has redundancy, but I hate it so much that I don't LRS often other than to maintain the skill occasionally. 

I'm totally comfortable climbing hard with a pack on so I think I'll give the backpack method a shot soon. I'm with you on managing two cache loops being a nightmare. I can also definitely appreciate being able to do away with knots entirely if you've got 2 devices going like you described in more detail in another thread you linked with pictures.

I'll report back once I've had a chance to try the backpack + trailing slipknots method. Thanks again 

I’m going to try backing up a silent partner with an Edelrid Fuse and no knots. I have the gear, but the weather in the Appalachians hasn’t been cooperative since the Fuse arrived. I don’t think a cashe loop will be necessary, but I may run one with a Roll-in-lock or mini-trax to reduce rope drag. I’ll report out here and to the FB page once I get a weather window. 

Last night I set up the following to see how it would feed:  GG+ HUD using a chest harness, 8.5mm Beal Opera rope stacked in a backpack with trailing slipknots every 5m or so. I would probably do the trailing knots every 2-3m for the first ~10m of rope in the event of a tough start to a route.

Walking around my apartment resulted in the rope self feeding relatively well which I think is a combination of the narrower rope size and the fact that it's a barely used rope so it's pretty slick. Using a somewhat fuzzy 9.2mm doesn't work nearly as well and requires me constantly giving myself slack manually. Giving myself slack via the backpack and using 1 hand + teeth to pull the slipknot out was easy enough. Mock falls with the GG+ in TR mode resulted in it locking up very quickly. 

I'll take it outside and give it a proper test. Just the overall lack of sh-t hanging off me as I climb is reason enough that I'm excited to start utilizing the backpack when I LRS. Clove hitched cache loops just ruin the experience for me. I recognize that setup is safer, but it totally ruins the experience so I think this option might be viable for me in terms of my real goal of being able to do my trad multi pitch stuff without needing a partner every time.

TThurman wrote:

I’m going to try backing up a silent partner with an Edelrid Fuse and no knots. I have the gear, but the weather in the Appalachians hasn’t been cooperative since the Fuse arrived. I don’t think a cashe loop will be necessary, but I may run one with a Roll-in-lock or mini-trax to reduce rope drag. I’ll report out here and to the FB page once I get a weather window. 

Curious to learn how this will work without a cache. Fuse on chest perhaps? 

@Cosmic: 

Sounds like a bomber setup to me! Looking forward to hearing about it being used. =) 

P.s. take some lead falls. I felt so much less scared after taking a few. 

Ricky Harline wrote:

Curious to learn how this will work without a cache. Fuse on chest perhaps? 

@Cosmic: 

Sounds like a bomber setup to me! Looking forward to hearing about it being used. =) 

P.s. take some lead falls. I felt so much less scared after taking a few. 

Dude I know I gotta take some! It's always so scary but I remember doing that with the Brent B cache loops method and it was so much less scary after seeing that yes, the system will catch me

Will keep you posted

@Ricky, thank you so much for advancing my post, and for all your contributions on MP for LRS. Big help!

@Cosmic, here is Ricky’s 2 device Tav and Revo setup thread. It looks awesome but I want to try backup knots for a while first (before buying two new devices). 

For multi-pitch trad, I’m planning to test using the continuous cache method with MicroTrax as my backup (with stopper slipknots), with it attached to a small sling wrapped around the harness left and front. If GG+ fails in a fall, then the MTrax butts into the GG+ (2nd image), which looks good to me. What do you guys think?

For sport routes <30m, I'm going to use the cache loops on the harness method.

Rope feed out of my backpack is unencumbered, so no need to pull a secondary cache loop out of the pack to the MTrax (just the one cache through the MTrax). Plus, pulling the slipknot out can be done by hand (not mouth) due to MTrax capture.

Scott Melcer wrote:

@Ricky, thank you so much for advancing my post, and for all your contributions on MP for LRS. Big help!

@Cosmic, here is Ricky’s 2 device Tav and Revo setup thread. It looks awesome but I want to try backup knots for a while first (before buying two new devices). 

For multi-pitch trad, I’m planning to test using the continuous cache method with MicroTrax as my backup (with stopper slipknots), with it attached to a small sling wrapped around the harness left and front. If GG+ fails in a fall, then the MTrax butts into the GG+ (2nd image), which looks good to me. What do you guys think?

For sport routes <30m, I'm going to use the cache loops on the harness method.

Rope feed out of my backpack is unencumbered, so no need to pull a secondary cache loop out of the pack to the MTrax (just the one cache through the MTrax). Plus, pulling the slipknot out can be done by hand (not mouth) due to MTrax capture.

Looks like a bomber setup to me! You've addressed every primary concern of LRS in your system. Have fun, and climb safe!