Travelling - Uncomfortable around paying guides

Hey everyone. Been meaning to post this for a bit. As the years have gone on, I've accrued a fair share of climbing destinations in many places, US included.

However, it's taken me a great deal of effort to build a network of climbing partners in my home state alone, and it's by far the most tiresome aspect of the sport. I've been bailed on many perfect mornings, bailed on folks (more so when I started out but still), and there are just so many times that people can't line up their schedules. Looking back now, it's really frustrating.

Anyway, I dread the aspect of trying to find a partner for many of these international climbing trips, as they are all almost exclusively multi-pitch endeavors. I think I have a few preconceived notions that commercial climbing guides are expensive; that due to risk-taking being a part of what customers would pay for, climbing can become a different, transactional experience. I understand many guides let you lead if you feel up to it and that's great.

Now, a lot of my friendships came from climbing, very organically so and I think that kind of connection just isn't there when you're paying. I understand this might be a irrational thought of mine, but I'm open to be proven wrong here. In fact I'd love to, because if climbing with a guide is sufficiently far from this idea that I have, it could make many of the trips on my To-Do (just dreams at this point) a reality.

For folks who are somewhat experienced and have resorted to paying a guide in these circumstances (international trips, somewhere difficult to find partners), how did it go? Was it a business-y affair? Would you pay again? Did it break the bank?

I've hired a guide twice in almost 50 years of climbing--both times it was great experience. Knowledgeable, skilled, friendly, interesting people with whom I genuinely enjoyed climbing. By my standards, it was very expensive. By yours...? It's easy enough to ask for rates, but don't forget to factor in a tip.

Henrique Vermelho wrote:

Now, a lot of my friendships came from climbing, very organically so and I think that kind of connection just isn't there when you're paying. I understand this might be a irrational thought of mine, but I'm open to be proven wrong here. In fact I'd love to, because if climbing with a guide is sufficiently far from this idea that I have, it could make many of the trips on my To-Do (just dreams at this point) a reality.

Maybe I'm misreading the situations, (I don't think I am) but most of my clients are actually pretty good friends of mine. (mostly because we climb together on average at least once a year and have been for 5-10 years) Sure, they pay me money and I deliver them a service, but why does that automatically negate the potential for friendship?  People hire and simultaneously befriend tradespersons, baristas, teachers, etc all the time.  Why would it be different with a guide?  

That kind of connection doesn't happen overnight, (typically not in a single trip) but if you find a guide you like, maintain a relationship with them and try to coordinate your schedules so that you can climb together in all your dream destinations.  

Edit to add: repeated trips allow for the guide to build trust in your skills.  I almost never am comfortable with someone I've just met leading while I'm guiding them on day 1. (maybe by the end of the day if we spend all day building towards that end goal) But after multiple days, the sky's the limit.  I've had days at work where I'm following the majority of IV 5.11 and 5.12 free climbs in the mountains and it felt totally comfortable because I spent enough time with each person to know they were solid in that environment.

Henrique Vermelho wrote:

Hey everyone. Been meaning to post this for a bit. As the years have gone on, I've accrued a fair share of climbing destinations in many places, US included.

However, it's taken me a great deal of effort to build a network of climbing partners in my home state alone, and it's by far the most tiresome aspect of the sport. I've been bailed on many perfect mornings, bailed on folks (more so when I started out but still), and there are just so many times that people can't line up their schedules. Looking back now, it's really frustrating.

Anyway, I dread the aspect of trying to find a partner for many of these international climbing trips, as they are all almost exclusively multi-pitch endeavors. I think I have a few preconceived notions that commercial climbing guides are expensive; that due to risk-taking being a part of what customers would pay for, climbing can become a different, transactional experience. I understand many guides let you lead if you feel up to it and that's great.

Now, a lot of my friendships came from climbing, very organically so and I think that kind of connection just isn't there when you're paying. I understand this might be a irrational thought of mine, but I'm open to be proven wrong here. In fact I'd love to, because if climbing with a guide is sufficiently far from this idea that I have, it could make many of the trips on my To-Do (just dreams at this point) a reality.

For folks who are somewhat experienced and have resorted to paying a guide in these circumstances (international trips, somewhere difficult to find partners), how did it go? Was it a business-y affair? Would you pay again? Did it break the bank?

Rate certainly varies depending on the country, but seems there’s some commonalities or average rates especially at the IFMGA or equivalent level.

I’ve done it a few times as a means to skip having to find my own beta, to skip having to find a partner, and to learn something. One of the guides has become quite a great personal friend.

One recommendation (and a good guide will start with this) is to be clear with your intentions. “Hey you were recommended to me by X and I’m keen to go climb A B C over this time period and I’d love some blunt critique on Y.” Rates are typically on a full day level and they end up being…super full days.

YMMV, but if you can find personal anecdotes and pre vet the guide, I’m optimistic you’ll both learn something and have a great time in the process safely.

I’m a guide of seven years, and I’ll echo Max’s comments. I have return guests that I’ve driven an entire day out of my way to go see, just to hang out, we’ve become that good of friends. I took another long time return guest to a Chicago Cubs game earlier this year. Furthermore, I’ve hired a guide on an international trip, and it was delightful. Don’t let your preconceived notions get in the way of having a great time.

For folks who are somewhat experienced and have resorted to paying a guide in these circumstances (international trips, somewhere difficult to find partners), how did it go? Was it a business-y affair? Would you pay again? Did it break the bank?

My situation sounds similar to yours.

My experience with guides on three continents has been very positive. None were very "business-y" in my estimation.

Breaking the bank is relative, but in every case the money I paid the guide was worth it, for me.

The best advice I have in "rent a friend" for a climb is to take responsibility / accountability for how the climb goes upon yourself - be the best partner you could be to the guide and be crystal clear with yourself and the guide about your motivations and objectives for that particular adventure.

Some days go better than others, and obviously guides are not all the same, but having local guides help me accomplish climbing goals when my regular partners aren't around has allowed me to do things I never would have been able to do otherwise, and very much improve and grow as a climber.

Max Tepfer wrote:

 Sure, they pay me money and I deliver them a service, but why does that automatically negate the potential for friendship?  People hire and simultaneously befriend tradespersons, baristas, teachers, etc all the time.  Why would it be different with a guide?  

.  

Max you forgot to mention the hardest working tradesperson!

I’ve learned almost all my climbing and skiing from guides but see it more as a teacher- student relationship, and didn’t feel transactional.

I don’t know the cost because the government paid for it. But it’s definitely not cheap.

Great questions, and I completely agree with Max.

Additionally, while it’s not required, I’m usually happy to meet for coffee or set up a virtual call beforehand. This allows us to ensure a good fit and discuss the goals and expectations for the outing in advance.

I don't usually climb with a guide, but if I am on a trip with my wife, and there is no one to climb with, I have hired a guide to climb with.

Usually, they let me lead pitches once we get to know each other, and then the climbs feel more like 2 equal partners climbing a route.

So, I have had good experiences so far climbing with a guide, some I have climbed with several times which is nice to have someone I am really familiar with........ when it's just me and my wife on a trip.....

If you have major objectives and limited time, a guide can be very helpful.  Guides usually have an intimate knowledge of local terrain, physical ability and stoke.  They aren’t cheap, but if you want something bad enough the cost isn’t the biggest obstacle.  Your own commitment and preparedness are far more important.  

Vetting is important though.  You aren’t the average client.  Guides can be impersonal, judgmental, controlling, arrogant and unmotivated.  Some will not do well as a partner in an egalitarian mission.  Others are happy to go along for the ride and are fun, humble people.  

What has worked best for me is planning my objectives early, learning as much as possible, preparing mentally and physically but still working hard to have a reliable, like-minded partner.  In essence, being my own guide as much as possible.  Then if I lose a partner, hiring a guide is an option.  It can work better than linking up with a last minute rando. 

Being a client is a skill. Like most skills, you might want to practice it on the ground first.

I haven’t hired many guides, and I’m not good at it by nature. If the money seems like A Thing to you, then it will be A Thing and will get in the way of being a potential friend and maybe even get to n the way of enjoying the climb. It did for me. I think there are folks who are better at being clients by nature, and others can use skills from being a boss or a senior or junior team member to fill in the skill gaps. But you know you. If you’re worried about it, maybe that is a legitimate concern.

I think hiring someone to help you with an odd job is good practice. A situation where you’re hiring help and working together. But somewhere that your vacation or your safety doesn’t depend on success. Practice being a good client, and then bring that skill on your next trip.

I have hired guides many times. In fact, I might be an outlier since I have probably hired guides for one third of my outings in the past few years and the rest climbed with recreational partners. At the end of the day, isn't finding fleeting and irregular partners, whether on the Internet or in locus, transactional in nature as well? Both parties are looking to exchange something, belays and someone to tie to a rope, not to build long lasting relationships.

I've hired a guide once in six seasons of consistent outdoor climbing. It was a very positive experience. I was on a family trip and couldn't line up a random partner on this site. I ended up climbing two multipitch routes in Little Cottonwood with a guide out of Salt Lake City (Willie Benegas). He was great and the cost for the day was reasonable given his experience and professionalism. Having a guide as a regular partner would be a very significant expense if you climb frequently and likely cost prohibitive for almost anyone. 

Climbing with a guide was definitely worth it for a stress free day of climbing some cool routes. However, I think having a guide as a regular partner would be a negative in the long run. It takes a lot of the important / meaningful things out of climbing hard-for-you multipitch routes. Having a guide reduces your need to (fully) participate in important decision making, like selecting the objective, evaluating weather and conditions, gear / rack selection, route finding, evaluating whether to continue or bail. It also gives you an easy "out" for backing off uncomfortable leads and gives you that safety net of believing that the better / more experienced guide will get the rope up (or make the decision to bail). 

for what it is worth

it reads as though u have low testosterone levels

easy to test for $69 with lab corp

or marek health 

trad partners are way way more reliable 

sport climbing is neither

I've had mostly good experiences with hiring guides.

Have developed some good friendships.

Here's a blog post I wrote on the subject:

http://larsonweb.com/blog/hiring-a-guide/

Which destinations are you considering?  I have used guide services in Canada, the US, Mexico, Ecuador, Bolivia, Guatemala, Colombia, Scotland, Spain, Switzerland,  Africa and Nepal.  My experiences have been overwhelmingly positive.  Occasional problems can usually be worked out with clear and direct communication. You can tip the scales in your favour by researching carefully and communicating your skills and objectives thoroughly so there are no surprises.

BTW, I have lots of availability and am frequently looking for international climbing partners,

Mike Grainger wrote:

BTW, I have lots of availability and am frequently looking for international climbing partners,

I've done a few climbing trips with Mike -- he's a great partner on climbing trips.

Mike Grainger wrote:

Which destinations are you considering?  I have used guide services in Canada, the US, Mexico, Ecuador, Bolivia, Guatemala, Colombia, Scotland, Spain, Switzerland,  Africa and Nepal.  My experiences have been overwhelmingly positive.  Occasional problems can usually be worked out with clear and direct communication. You can tip the scales in your favour by researching carefully and communicating your skills and objectives thoroughly so there are no surprises.

BTW, I have lots of availability and am frequently looking for international climbing partners,

I will be heading down to Frey, Bariloche for a two seeker in February 7! But I wager it's a bit too pricey to book flights at this point.

I would be keen on visiting quite a few other climbing spots around Latin America and the US! I potentially have another couple of weeks to swing around this year.

Max Tepfer wrote:

Maybe I'm misreading the situations, (I don't think I am) but most of my clients are actually pretty good friends of mine. (mostly because we climb together on average at least once a year and have been for 5-10 years) Sure, they pay me money and I deliver them a service, but why does that automatically negate the potential for friendship?  People hire and simultaneously befriend tradespersons, baristas, teachers, etc all the time.  Why would it be different with a guide?  

That kind of connection doesn't happen overnight, (typically not in a single trip) but if you find a guide you like, maintain a relationship with them and try to coordinate your schedules so that you can climb together in all your dream destinations.  

Edit to add: repeated trips allow for the guide to build trust in your skills.  I almost never am comfortable with someone I've just met leading while I'm guiding them on day 1. (maybe by the end of the day if we spend all day building towards that end goal) But after multiple days, the sky's the limit.  I've had days at work where I'm following the majority of IV 5.11 and 5.12 free climbs in the mountains and it felt totally comfortable because I spent enough time with each person to know they were solid in that environment.

How does this relationship work for destination climbing? Does your client pay for your travel expenses, too? I can't imagine that would be within most folks means.

Tony Danza wrote:

I’m a guide of seven years, and I’ll echo Max’s comments. I have return guests that I’ve driven an entire day out of my way to go see, just to hang out, we’ve become that good of friends. I took another long time return guest to a Chicago Cubs game earlier this year. Furthermore, I’ve hired a guide on an international trip, and it was delightful. Don’t let your preconceived notions get in the way of having a great time.

No firsthand experience, but I've heard from friends in the biz that its actually pretty common practice for guides to hire other guides when they are traveling and scoping areas outside their home turf.