Back up line?

almostrad wrote:

Nice.  I use a work seat too, but when I have a lot of tools on me I still feel the weight when I swing around or jug.  Usually not a big deal but if I can't get great positioning to the hole or I'm leaning out for whatever reason, it's nice to be a lot lighter (so having everything on the other line is nice.)

Anyone spending more than 15 minutes working on a rope without a seat is totally blowing it though

Hang the heavy stuff off your extended rappel (when working down, that is). Yeah a seat is a game changer!

Diago,

When I do any of my rebolting work, I 99.9% of the time have a backup line. There have been a few times that having one was more dangerous.   To answer your questions:

• It provides reassurance against sharp edges on your main / working line
• Protection from hot drill bits / hot studs after spinning 
• A place to hang extra gear 
• A hauling line if your working line is clipped in through draws below.  This is typical if rebolting in very steep terrain and not going hole for hole
• A rescue line if something were to happen.  As well as a line to use to escape steep terrain (if line is through draws) 
• Extra posititing oppertunties
• I can keep going...

I will say that if you do use a 2nd rope, use a chest harness.  Its safer and can be used to hold your chest while working in steep terrain.  It can feel cumbersome at first but ultimately is the way

Photo of the SLCA's system at work:

Yes I was looking at an Avao Petzl harness with the chest attachment point but waiting for them to get in stock with the new model 

Diego B wrote:

Yes I was looking at an Avao Petzl harness with the chest attachment point but waiting for them to get in stock with the new model 

The Avao would be way overkill for rebolting. Most of whats on that harness you will never use for rebolting...not to mention that would almost fill up a pack alone.  The Felcon Harness and Chest'Air I believe to be a great combo for what we do.

I haven't experienced the new model but I found the old Avao to be horribly uncomfortable. The chest air is great if you want to add a chest harness to any sit style harness.  I paired mine with a Singing Rock Sit Worker 3d. I generally go without the chest harness for rebolting work. 

I wanted to revisit this conversation to point something out.  I am seeing a lot of people using a two rope system with their backup off their sit harness / belay loop.  If doing this, you need to exercise extreme caution.  Please always ask yourself "why am I using a backup and what are the risks i'm trying to mitigate".  If you were to go unconscious with this type of system (no chest harness),  you could fall back and slip out of your harness. 

I use a second line primarily due to concerns about rope damage, or for positioning. I generally have limited concern about large objects falling on me, or falling in a way that I would get knocked out. 

I know SLCA techs use full body harnesses, but I’ve not been willing to carry the extra bulk/weight. I’ve occasionally used a chest harness, but pretty infrequently. 

Got bored this weekend.  Wanted to see what an oscillation multitool will do to a run of the mill dynamic rope.  The rope is an old BlueWater 10.2.  The blade is the common Dremel brand carbide blade made for serious metal cutting.  As I mention in the video- I use them all the time and easily get 10-20 cuts through 5/16 and larger stainless steel fasteners in a marine application- way less if I'm in any sort of hurry- slow is fast when cutting SS.  I was a little surprised by how quickly I was on the floor.  I did one more that I didn't record where I did not rotate the strand to intentionally make it through the entire sheath quickly- that cut took like twice as long, still only a few seconds with realistic, light-moderate pressure before total failure.

TLDR- a metal cutting mutlitool blade will cut a weighted climbing rope in less than 5 seconds.  The rope puts up little resistance if it's under tension.

https://youtu.be/DnIVbOS4uoQ

https://youtu.be/qJRqYNbYZNk

Andy Shoemaker wrote:

Got bored this weekend.  Wanted to see what an oscillation multitool will do to a run of the mill dynamic rope.  The rope is an old BlueWater 10.2.  The blade is the common Dremel brand carbide blade made for serious metal cutting.  As I mention in the video- I use them all the time and easily get 10-20 cuts through 5/16 and larger stainless steel fasteners in a marine application- way less if I'm in any sort of hurry- slow is fast when cutting SS.  I was a little surprised by how quickly I was on the floor.  I did one more that I didn't record where I did not rotate the strand to intentionally make it through the entire sheath quickly- that cut took like twice as long, still only a few seconds with realistic, light-moderate pressure before total failure.

TLDR- a metal cutting mutlitool blade will cut a weighted climbing rope in less than 5 seconds.  The rope puts up little resistance if it's under tension.

https://youtu.be/DnIVbOS4uoQ

https://youtu.be/qJRqYNbYZNk

Thanks for taking one to the arse for "science" amigo. Slightly terrifying how fast that went. But I'd wager that the wild spinning ninja star that is my cut off wheel, which I typically use to clean up old mank, would slice through even faster. Be safe out there! Use a backup strand whenever possible!

Seems to me if you're going to go to a 2-rope system, may as well drink the Kool-aid and go for the full SPRAT setup, which has the 2-rope system completely dialed.  They have full-body harnesses designed to accomodate the 2-rope setup, and designed for all-day comfort, and they have developed techniques that make the best use of the system.

For a bosun's chair, one-rope setup (my preference in my line of work), I usually jug to the top in one shot, then set up the chair with a grigri, hang everything off the chair so it's not on me, and rappel down, stopping at every work spot.  I bring a progress-capture device, tagline and pulley so I can haul heavy stuff rather than jug with it, if necessary.  It's been a while since I re-bolted anything, but that's how I'd go about it today.

My preference is for one bomber rope, Dyneema-cored static with Technora in the cover for grip and heat.  I just wish they made grigris for skinnier ropes.....

After having a rope halfway cut through while cleaning a route I always consider a second line. 

Andy Shoemaker wrote:

Got bored this weekend.  Wanted to see what an oscillation multitool will do to a run of the mill dynamic rope.  The rope is an old BlueWater 10.2.  The blade is the common Dremel brand carbide blade made for serious metal cutting.  As I mention in the video- I use them all the time and easily get 10-20 cuts through 5/16 and larger stainless steel fasteners in a marine application- way less if I'm in any sort of hurry- slow is fast when cutting SS.  I was a little surprised by how quickly I was on the floor.  I did one more that I didn't record where I did not rotate the strand to intentionally make it through the entire sheath quickly- that cut took like twice as long, still only a few seconds with realistic, light-moderate pressure before total failure.

TLDR- a metal cutting mutlitool blade will cut a weighted climbing rope in less than 5 seconds.  The rope puts up little resistance if it's under tension.

https://youtu.be/DnIVbOS4uoQ

https://youtu.be/qJRqYNbYZNk

Thanks for sharing Andy.  Defiantly a real concern!

Get your SPRAT if your only looking to get a job in the industry.  Go to the college of YouTube, practice and you'll be somewhat dialed. Take that 2k you would spend on a class and buy 4 thing: a 2nd rope, back up device, chest harness and a petzl rig 

Andy Shoemaker wrote:

The key to metal cutting with an oscillating tool is patience. I cut galled up stainless steel fasteners multiple times a week and easily get 15-30 cuts of 3/8” bolts out of one carbide multiblade. If you push too hard you can trash a blade in 10 seconds. If you’re patient you can get a cumulative 30 minutes of cutting out of one easily.

I use the dremel brand carbide mutliblades and love them. Go through maybe 6-8 a year building campervans full time. 

I’m curious now though how a tensioned rope will hold up to a fresh multiblade. Might have to do some workshop science. I wouldnt be surprised to see a sharp multiblade make short work of a tensioned sheath. 

Like you said, pushing too hard kills the blades quick. I have a blade on my tool right now that has cut through at least 20 nails and is still plunging into wood with ease. Diablo brand blades I believe.