Opinions on DMM cams

Recently was talking to a DMM rep about pro deals on their cams. Wasn’t exactly sure what they’re like so wanted some opinions on them from people who have used them or tried them 

I love DMM but the lack of thumb loop on their Dragon cams is a hard pass for me. Everything else they make - I'm a fan. 

I say this so you're aware of the lack of thumb loop in case that's a deal breaker for you. The dragonflies do have a thumb loop, however. 

Love my dragonflies. Action is great, size is great, extendo sling is great. For the dragons it depends on how you feel about thumb loops. They are also slightly heavier than cams in comparable sizes, and the extension sling is a bit finicky. 

Personally I like the lack of a thumb loop on gold and below.  More packable and easy to place once u get used to it.  On blue and up a thumb loop would be preferred for me. 

Built my first rack with dragons after playing with all the brands except totem. I love mine, I actually like that they’re slightly heavier they feel solid. Then again I’m mostly only doing crags and shorter multi pitch.

I don’t miss the thumb loop at all, but I have friends that hate that there’s no thumb loop so 

I liked the Camalots without thumb loops, sometimes better — palm that stem and stuff it. So, no thumb loop is fine by me, especially in combination with the extendable sling. That's great when you have time and presence of mind or know the route. Some partners will complain. Insert eye roll emoji here.

Dragonflies are great. Best Aliens ever made? Hahaha. In the smallest sizes they can be wiggly, not stuffable, but that's kinda the way of tiny cams. I substitute the Z4 for the tiny green.

I'm a newer trad climber, so take this with a grain of salt.

On mediocre rock like limestone, Totems are better than everything else. But of the dual axle designs with a greater range (BD, WC, DMM), Dragons are the winner for bad or slick rock. The triple-grip lobes aren't just a gimmick. I have more confidence climbing above them. Dragons also don't walk much (I almost always extend the slings), which is important in bad placements where a few centimeters makes a difference between an OK and an unsafe placement. If you practice with the extendable slings on the ground, it becomes second nature to do and saves you messing around looking for a quickdraw on a good number of placements on the cliff. But you do want to practice, it's not fun to mess around with when pumping out. 

I also have a set of WC Friends. I like them, but don't really need the thumb loop or find myself missing it. I had some C4s but am selling them.

For my needs (single pitch trad on often slick/weak rock), the hierarchy is as follows:

1. Totems.    2. Dragons.     3. WC Friends.    4. BD C4s (anodizing on contact surfaces, no extendable sling)

For people who truly need thumb loops or have the lowest possible weight as a primary target, they aren't a good choice. For my needs, they are great.

Other than Totems, Dragons are my preferred cams up to size 3. 4 and above you really ought to go C4 to stow them closed IMO. 

I use the extendy slings in the Dragons a LOT. 

The lack of thumb loops isn't a big deal to me EXCEPT that it means that they're no good for aid. I have a quadruple rack for some reason though so I just don't take them aid climbing. If you want a similar cam that works well for aid go for the WC friends, but the extendy slings on the Dragons are certainly superior. 

Love my totem and dragon combo. Again thumb loop is a deal breaker for some, I don't mind the lack of thumb loop. 

They do seem more secure than BD C4s. The extendable slins are great, though I do find that I have to stop myself from extending every placement because it's so easy. 

As to the earlier comment about the ability to stow large cams closed take a small stick and stick it in between the ribs and it will stay closed. That and the fact that many climbs don't need 4s or above I would still get dragons. The C4 design just isn't as good right now.  IMHO 

I have used them and liked them. Enough that I would consider replacing my previous generation Camelots. I am not a thumb loop fan because for alpine climbing the thumb loop and gloves don't get along.

The most recent generation is, wider than the competition while having narrower lobes, heavier than the competition and has no thumb loop, and it's short stem makes it more difficult to place and more likely to get stuck. 

Get Wild Country or Totems. 

Regarding extendable slings, the dmm execution means if you unclip the wrong strand you will get the sewn eye stuck in the pig nose and will have to fix it(pain in the arse), the extension gives you about the same extension as a short dog bone but anything properly wondery and you want a real draw, and finally, they swing like crazy in your harness. 

The WC friend extension is almost useless except for it allows you to avoid the biner being loaded badly over an edge, which in my experience, has been very useful. 

i've never met anyone who regretted buying C4's. they are the gold standard for a reason. as for micro cams, choose your own adventure. the dragonfly seems fine from what i have seen.

I think dragon cams are bunk because the heads are so dang wide. Especially in the finger sized cames, it makes them WAY less usable in irregular cracks and funky placements. 

Dragonflies seem great, but I haven't actually placed any.

that guy named sebwrote:

The most recent generation is, wider than the competition while having narrower lobes, heavier than the competition and has no thumb loop, and it's short stem makes it more difficult to place and more likely to get stuck. 

I'm not sure I agree. I just compared two sizes of C4s, Dragons, and Friends. All most recent generation.

On the .5 equivalent, the BD had the narrowest head, but also had the narrowest lobes. The Friend and Dragon seemed virtually the same on both metrics.

On the #2 equivalent, the Friend had a slightly narrower head, and the BD and Dragon were the same. But the C4 seemed to have slightly narrower lobes. No brand emerged as a clear winner in any of the metrics, and the Dragon lobes were definitely not noticeably narrower than the competition.

Regarding stem length, I just lined the cams up alongside each other, and while the DMM stem base was slightly shorter, we are talking fractions of a centimeter. It looks a lot shorter because there is no thumb loop, but if you measure from the base of the thumb loop, which is where you actually push to release the cam when it's stuck, it's pretty darn close across all three. Admittedly I haven't climbed enough trad to get cams really stuck yet, so maybe I'm off on that one.

I really like my WC Friends, and consider them an excellent cam. They offer almost all the upside of the Ultralight C4 with none of the downsides (with wider lobes and no anodizing on the contact surfaces to boot). But sometimes I feel like people hate on the Dragons with too much fervor. If you need thumb loops or demand the absolute lightest, they aren't the cam for you. Other criticisms, IMO, are overblown.

I started with a rack of dragons and sold them. I didn’t like how frequently people would extend the wrong side, greatly reducing the strength of the cam. Didn’t happen frequently, but enough that I decided I didn’t want to deal with them. 

All modern cams are good. 

DMM offers some of the finest machining and build quality in the industry. They have talented engineers and machinists, and not a drop of creativity in the whole company. They were once innovators, but that was decades ago. DMM hasn't made anything truly new this century. They are essentially a fast fashion company, except they make climbing gear and their versions tend to have higher-end fit and finish than what they are copying. 

The ultimate destiny of DMM is to make direct loading cams, a la totem, in a neater and tighter package than totem does. Until then totems > friends = C4's > Dragons > large ULMC's > Trango flex cams. 

I truly hope someone from DMM reads this, the entire climbing community would love for your company to prove my above statements wrong.

Scott Dwrote:

All modern cams are good. 

DMM offers some of the finest machining and build quality in the industry. They have talented engineers and machinists, and not a drop of creativity in the whole company. They were once innovators, but that was decades ago. DMM hasn't made anything truly new this century. They are essentially a fast fashion company, except they make climbing gear and their versions tend to have higher-end fit and finish than what they are copying. 

The ultimate destiny of DMM is to make direct loading cams, a la totem, in a neater and tighter package than totem does. Until then totems > friends = C4's > Dragons > large ULMC's > Trango flex cams. 

I truly hope someone from DMM reads this, the entire climbing community would love for your company to prove my above statements wrong.

Actually a svelt totem knockoff sounds pretty sweet. 

Philip Wirewrote:

I'm a newer trad climber, so take this with a grain of salt.

On mediocre rock like limestone, Totems are better than everything else. But of the dual axle designs with a greater range (BD, WC, DMM), Dragons are the winner for bad or slick rock. The triple-grip lobes aren't just a gimmick. I have more confidence climbing above them. Dragons also don't walk much (I almost always extend the slings), which is important in bad placements where a few centimeters makes a difference between an OK and an unsafe placement. If you practice with the extendable slings on the ground, it becomes second nature to do and saves you messing around looking for a quickdraw on a good number of placements on the cliff. But you do want to practice, it's not fun to mess around with when pumping out. 

I also have a set of WC Friends. I like them, but don't really need the thumb loop or find myself missing it. I had some C4s but am selling them.

For my needs (single pitch trad on often slick/weak rock), the hierarchy is as follows:

1. Totems.    2. Dragons.     3. WC Friends.    4. BD C4s (anodizing on contact surfaces, no extendable sling)

For people who truly need thumb loops or have the lowest possible weight as a primary target, they aren't a good choice. For my needs, they are great.

The reason totems are good in limestone is not because they work better in chossier rock. It's just because limestone placements tend to be uneven and pockety which is where totems shine. 

Not sure if that's what you meant but just wanted to spread some potential knowledge to a newer trad climber

Luke Lalorwrote:

I started with a rack of dragons and sold them. I didn’t like how frequently people would extend the wrong side, greatly reducing the strength of the cam. Didn’t happen frequently, but enough that I decided I didn’t want to deal with them. 

Tough to do with even half a brain, but I suppose that’s to be expected. Before Brent started making flip-stops, I would secure the sling to the biner w a 3x/4x’d rubber band, then it’s impossible to dump the “wrong” strand when extending. With flip-stops it is very clean and tidy. I have all of my dragonflys set up w flip-stops, they are my go-to cam at 0.2 and smaller (still use z4’s to supplement the totems from .3-.5)

The real question here is who in the US is getting pro deals on DMM cams?

Scott Dwrote:

They have talented engineers and machinists, and not a drop of creativity in the whole company. 

Apparently the directors are very cautious and conservative with the products, it took a lot of lobbying from the design team to just introduce the red alpha sport draws. All their kit is over built and it's why you never see anything particularly lightweight coming from them. 

They will never make a totem equivalent cam because direct loading requires small and relatively fragile wires, though maybe DMM will be different in a decade when the patent expires. 

As a business they're more comparable to Petzl than Camp. 

Edelrid seem to manage the balancing act better than anyone Imo.