New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #32

Its starting to feel wintery.. 

Every now and then I need to renew my redneck creds.  This time I put off changing the oil in the plow truck and putting the chains on until it was darks outside and the middle of a snowstorm after a full day of working construction in an unheated space.. .. 

Idaho Bobwrote:

Take a look at the cable route to the top of Angel's Landing in Zion.  Doesn't look like the NPS is overly concerned about safety.

Might find some examples here:

NPS CIRO

Where's Jay?  Ha ha...

Since there are people here who like to invent meanings for words that are already used to mean something else, I feel the need to expound. I asked Google about this, and it gave me as a definition  exactly what I already understand by the word "flash". Here's what it said: " In climbing, a flash is when a climber reaches the top of a route on their first attempt, while having some prior knowledge of the route. This knowledge can come from a variety of sources, such as watching someone else climb the route, reading about it, or receiving advice from a climbing partner." According to that definition, there is no reason why you cannot flash something while climbing on a toprope. If you want to use words to mean something different from their excepted meaning. you should be care careful to  inform people what it is you're trying to say (a mathematicians lament). 

Guy Keeseewrote:

@Carl …. I think I could go climbing with you. A refreshing adult beverage for lunch can be like a power drink and a good smoke can make you climb your dead level best. :>) 

Anytime. I'm down south :-)

I think there is a BIG difference in retro-bolting a badly done sport route that was bolted on rappel and doing the same to a trad route that was done ground up.  Often the lack of bolts on a trad route is due to either nowhere to stop and drill, or the cost of adding bolts that were deemed unnecessary.  Where as bolts being in the wrong place on a rappel set sport route is just down to the first ascenters being lousy at their job.

And I have no problem with flashing, or onsite flashing routes on TR.  Just don't tell me you redpointed a route if you TRed it.

And now this. This guy is 25 years older than me.   facebook.com/share/r/3SyCs7…

 Jan I fix my ground up routes immediately after sending them. being cheap is no excuse for a lousy bolt job and while being sketched out on lead is expected its easy enough to go back and fix it.  Especially now in the days of power drills. I over drill my wedge bolts which you are supposed to do anyways if you read the directions on the box. If the bolt is in a bad spot or not the right spot I just take the hanger off, hammer the stud into the hole and place the bolt where it should have been.  When I am done its as perfect as I can do it. Just like being at work.  Do a good job every time. 

Greg Oplandwrote:

Consensus opinon semed to be that Swing Low (5.7) over in Echo Cove was harder than Penny Lane. 

Incorrect

Nowadays, about 80% of my climbing is either at Sonora Pass areas or in Pinnacles National Park. I have a long, long history at Pinnacles and have done maybe 100 first ascents there (I’ve never counted).

Pinnacles has a very well established tradition and history of putting routes up on lead only, while hand drilling. The rock there is sometimes less than perfect and so this process can get pretty exciting at times.

It’s pretty unusual these days for a whole area to have a strong, ground-up ethic, but I love the tradition there, for this one highly unique place (I often put routes in top-down here on Sonora Pass, a venue which does not share Pinnacles’ history or tradition at all).

During the last 15 to 20 years at Pinnacles, the great majority of new routes established have been well-protected to very well-protected. Sport-bolting protected. And, although I have put up a couple of hair-raisers there, those were mostly done more than 15 years ago and I really like this more modern trend (and I like it more and more with every year of age).

On at least a dozen of my more recent FAs at Pinnacles, I’ve kept the trend going by adding bolts after the route’s first lead. Those occasions arise when I’ve been unable to find a drill stance, or hooks, or any form of aid from which to drill. In those situations, I’ve run it out (sometimes way out) and then later, after the climb was completed, added another lead bolt to the resulting “gap” (I added two on one occasion and three once - although on the three, my partner Gavin did the later-bolted runout).

In a very real sense, this preserves both the lead bolting tradition, and the well-protected first ascent trend. And, to be clear, since the later-bolted route had been established by the time the bolts are added, I think it is legitimate to make the additions while on rappel. Mostly I’ve done the bolt-adding on the same day as the route is finished. If not the same day, then very soon after.

Several of the climbers who’ve been putting up routes at Pinnacles have done the same thing (often with me). It’s kind of become part of the ethic there and we think it works well.

And speaking of aging, I had a “kids nowadays” moment today that made me smile (eventually).

I recently got a core shot in my 60 meter rope. So today I called our local climbing shop and spoke with a great young guy named Peter. Peter is everything somebody working in retail should be: kind, courteous and on the ball.

Peter gave me details about what ropes were in stock and then we chatted to catch up. Somehow, the subject of my upcoming birthday came up and I told him that I'd be 64 later this month.

I then asked Peter if he’d “still love me.” Long silence. Eventually, he stammered: “yes, of course.”

The silent gap gave it away: I asked him if he understood the reference. He did not. I sang a verse for him (badly). He’d never heard of it. Yes, he’d “heard of the Beatles,” he told me, but he didn’t know anything about any of their songs. Sigh.

Heh! I had a similar moment yesterday, though with a more eclectic band that Gen Z could reasonably be excused for not being familiar.

I was at the dealership having some work done on my Outback, and the rep I was interacting with asked about my T-shirt. I was wearing a shirt with the iconic graphic of Marc Bolan from the T Rex album Electric Warrior. He said, ‘cool shirt…is that Slash playing guitar?’ I smiled slightly and said no, it was T Rex, a pivotal glam rock band. He looked quizzical, grabbed his phone, and quickly pulled up a T Rex video…and said ‘whoa…that’s glam rock’. I didn’t go any further with the convo, but left thinking maybe…just maybe…he might broaden his understanding of the musical world by diving deeper into this stuff.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

 Jan ... being cheap is no excuse for a lousy bolt job... 

I agree now days.  But back in the day when we were broke dirtbag climbers, it was a real fact of lfe that you would only put bolts in you felt you needed to keep from dying cause you couldn't afford to put 15 bolts on a pitch.  And if you want to go back up and add bolts to your own routes, that is fine but to me says you care more about what other people think of your route than how you did it.  Maybe that is how it is now days but it doesn't mean I would act the same way.

Brad Youngwrote:

And speaking of aging, I had a “kids nowadays” moment today that made me smile (eventually).

I recently got a core shot in my 60 meter rope. So today I called our local climbing shop and spoke with a great young guy named Peter. Peter is everything somebody working in retail should be: kind, courteous and on the ball.

Peter gave me details about what ropes were in stock and then we chatted to catch up. Somehow, the subject of my upcoming birthday came up and I told him that I'd be 64 later this month.

I then asked Peter if he’d “still love me.” Long silence. Eventually, he stammered: “yes, of course.”

The silent gap gave it away: I asked him if he understood the reference. He did not. I sang a verse for him (badly). He’d never heard of it. Yes, he’d “heard of the Beatles,” he told me, but he didn’t know anything about any of their songs. Sigh.

A classic.

Speaking of which I heard someone singing a Cranberries song the other day, and another person shouted, “Wow, you know the words!”. They’d both been born AFTER the song had long lost popularity.

I just kept silent and sent one of the Touchstone board climbs then sank back into a hole in the corner of the gym. Double sigh… 

Bob Gaineswrote:

As someone who has done a fair amount of bolt replacement, I can tell you that the policy at Joshua Tree National Park is that a permit is required to replace a bolt (bolt replacement), and that if you wish to add a bolt to an existing route (retro-bolt) you need to provide written permission from whomever did the first ascent.

I wonder if normally there is a process of objective assessment by the NPS to determine if a valid bolt replacement is required ? Do they go out and actually climb the route and conclude: " Oh yeah this bolt needs to be replaced lest someone prangs on that block down below"  If there is NOT such an independent assessment ,well , it seems they must rely on some sort of undetermined honor system, which , in the case of Mr. Gaines would work quite well as a matter of course, for reasons that are clear. Other than that it would seem they are merely doing what bureaucratic entities do best : which is to generate regulations to  generate paperwork and to further extend and solidify control over their self-perpetuating mandate.

As for the. "add a bolt" or "retro-bolt" regulation it appears  the NPS is readily capable of an almost parental type of oversight - in which they had to come up  with something-- so why not a permission slip from someone who likely gave up climbing 20 years ago, almost died in a car accident, might require a private-eye to track down, then was  finally uncovered by forensic genealogy living in an abandoned ghost town somewhere in northern Michigan.

Brian in SLCwrote:

Might find some examples here:

NPS CIRO

Where's Jay?  Ha ha...

Hi Brian, I have opted to have MP ignore some of the folks on this thread since they are clearly idiots, as Jan pointed out, so I haven't seen all I should to know clearly what you asking. But I will hazard a guess and my answer is only an idiot would suggest NPS or BLM  or USFS would require retrobolting for safety. Can you say assumption of liability? What is the logical end point of such an action?

Give me a holler if you get JT, Brian. Would like to climb with you and am much impressed by your climbing accomplishments. You have climbed everywhere!

Brad Youngwrote:

And speaking of aging, I had a “kids nowadays” moment today that made me smile (eventually).

I recently got a core shot in my 60 meter rope. So today I called our local climbing shop and spoke with a great young guy named Peter. Peter is everything somebody working in retail should be: kind, courteous and on the ball.

Peter gave me details about what ropes were in stock and then we chatted to catch up. Somehow, the subject of my upcoming birthday came up and I told him that I'd be 64 later this month.

I then asked Peter if he’d “still love me.” Long silence. Eventually, he stammered: “yes, of course.”

The silent gap gave it away: I asked him if he understood the reference. He did not. I sang a verse for him (badly). He’d never heard of it. Yes, he’d “heard of the Beatles,” he told me, but he didn’t know anything about any of their songs. Sigh.

Ha ha! Funny. Creep!! Time you changed your last name isn't it?

Carl Schneiderwrote:

Time you changed your last name isn't it?

Nah. I intend to die Young.

Donald Thompson wrote:

"I wonder if normally there is a process of objective assessment by the NPS to determine if a valid bolt replacement is required ?"

In Wilderness areas, yes, but in a different issue.  It's more about our ability to replace the bolt at all.  It's called a MRA (minimum requirements analysis). The NPS is attempting to re-interpret the 1964 Wilderness Act, and re-define bolts as prohibited permanent "installations," only allowed if they can satisfy a MRA review which essentially means they''ll have to justify that they're necessary for safe recreation which doesn't interfere with the character of the wilderness.

The current proposals for Joshua Tree Wilderness would NOT allow replacement of bolts on sport climbs (and potentially have them removed) since they do not satisfy the MRA requirements (according to the NPS).

I could write a book on this topic, it's getting complicated and increasingly political.

Tim Brattenwrote:

If you want to use words to mean something different from their excepted meaning. you should be care careful to  inform people what it is you're trying to say (a mathematicians lament). 

Except if you’re using the word except in place of accept. Then you don’t have to inform anybody. Because everybody accepts that that’s an exception.

Bob Gaineswrote:

Donald Thompson wrote:

"I wonder if normally there is a process of objective assessment by the NPS to determine if a valid bolt replacement is required ?"

In Wilderness areas, yes, but in a different issue.  It's more about our ability to replace the bolt at all.  It's called a MRA (minimum requirements analysis). The NPS is attempting to re-interpret the 1964 Wilderness Act, and re-define bolts as prohibited permanent "installations," only allowed if they can satisfy a MRA review which essentially means they''ll have to justify that they're necessary for safe recreation which doesn't interfere with the character of the wilderness.

The current proposals for Joshua Tree Wilderness would NOT allow replacement of bolts on sport climbs (and potentially have them removed) since they do not satisfy the MRA requirements (according to the NPS).

I could write a book on this topic, it's getting complicated and increasingly political.

They've been kicking around the threat of removing lots of bolts (especially in designated wilderness areas)for several years now, haven't they? It seems as if the rebolting regs mentioned above have been a type of half-way measure, since the NPS seems to have originally formulated  their more extreme measures ( bolt removal) as a way of making those new measures they actually enact, appear tame-- for one thing.

That being said , me thinks they'll not attempt too much over the next few years. They might have to pivot to justifying general operating costs and measures -- the ones that might look funny on paper. Which is long overdue.