Is simul-climbing overrated?

Max Tepferwrote:

Yeah, I spend enough time effectively soloing and sometimes soloing that I prefer to not do it recreationally.  Especially in 5the 5.9 to 5.11- zone which is usually the grade I’m talking about simuling.

Definitely.  By the below definition, there probably aren’t that many big alpine routes getting guided.  Fitz Roy and the Moose’s Tooth both come to mind as bigger objectives that are somewhat frequently guided and might fit your definition? (except for the regular repeats part) Saying they’re not ‘big’ alpine objectives begs the question what’s bigger, but to your point, there’s a lot of subjectivity there.  Lessar, still ‘big’ routes are the grand traverse, evo, Beckey chouinard, torment-forbidden, north ridge of forbidden, peak 113600, et al, but they don’t quite fit your parameters.

Fitz, and Moose's are definitely exceptions in what I was getting at and a good point for you to make. Moose's tooth is commonly done in a day by many parties though. Both are still big routes and proud ascents, though I'll admit that the frequency Ham and Eggs is getting guided is certainly diminishing its status in my mind. That's a different conversation though. 

I think a route that has been, and is still, guided that is inarguably big is the West Rib of Denali. My understanding though is that many of these ascents still involve simul-climbing to some extent. 

Max Tepferwrote:

Yeah, I spend enough time effectively soloing and sometimes soloing that I prefer to not do it recreationally.  Especially in 5the 5.9 to 5.11- zone which is usually the grade I’m talking about simuling.

I meant to respond to this in my last reply. I think we are actually really saying the same thing now though. You likely can comfortably solo in those grade, but choose to simul climb in order to have some element of risk mitigation an still present on a big route. Am I correct? 

If I'm correct in that assumption, we are saying the same thing with our simul climbing preferences and criteria. I "could" solo the terrain but choose to keep the rope in play and moving in order to mitigate some risk.

NateCwrote:

If I'm correct in that assumption, we are saying the same thing with our simul climbing preferences and criteria. I "could" solo the terrain but choose to keep the rope in play and moving in order to mitigate some risk.

Exactly.  Even if you’re basically solo-ing the pitch wearing a rope and a rack, (but the team is still attached to the terrain somewhere) just being tied into a rope and having some gear on your harness goes a long way towards risk mitigation. 

NateCwrote:

I'm not certain I agree with you, but it's going to boil down to what constitutes a "big" alpine route which is where you, I and several others are going to have divergent opinions. Generally speaking, I wouldn't consider it a "big alpine route" if it has become pedestrian enough to be guided.

I think routes like this can be climbed without simuling, it's just a matter of time.  You probably can't climb the Cassin in a day or the SE Face of Lotus in <12 hours without simuling, but you can climb routes like that with little to none of it if you are willing to spend more time out.  If that's not your jam I totally get it, just suggesting that simuling isn't required to get routes done, just to get them done faster.  I only mention the routes above because I have done both of them with minimal simuling, so it's definitely possible, you just need a bit more time.

On the topic of big routes that get guided, I believe that the West Face Couloir on Huntington is guided somewhat regularly, and I think Max mentioned 11,300 above.  SE face of Lotus also gets guided, but that's more of a remote rock climb than an alpine climb.  Max would know more about the specific techniques that are being employed on routes like that, and whether or not the parties are doing any simuling.

I think in some ways the trickier stuff is actually the longer easier climbs, where pitching everything out would be very time consuming.  Something like the Torment-Forbidden Traverse, for example.  For a competent private party, I think it would be quite uncommon not to simul a lot of that terrain.  Not sure what it looks like to guide something like that, seems challenging to balance speed and guide/client safety (I have huge respect for professionals who work in that type of terrain).

Kyle Tarrywrote:

I think routes like this can be climbed without simuling, it's just a matter of time.  You probably can't climb the Cassin in a day or the SE Face of Lotus in <12 hours without simuling, but you can climb routes like that with little to none of it if you are willing to spend more time out.  If that's not your jam I totally get it, just suggesting that simuling isn't required to get routes done, just to get them done faster.  I only mention the routes above because I have done both of them with minimal simuling, so it's definitely possible, you just need a bit more time.

100%. This was kind of the point I was going for.  I think there's a slight false narrative out there that success on a big climb requires simuling and 100% agree that it's mostly just an efficiency+enjoyment tool that occasionally makes you safer through exposure reduction. (but that's also probably often overblown)

On the topic of big routes that get guided, I believe that the West Face Couloir on Huntington is guided somewhat regularly, and I think Max mentioned 11,300 above.  SE face of Lotus also gets guided, but that's more of a remote rock climb than an alpine climb.  Max would know more about the specific techniques that are being employed on routes like that, and whether or not the parties are doing any simuling.

I think in some ways the trickier stuff is actually the longer easier climbs, where pitching everything out would be very time consuming.  Something like the Torment-Forbidden Traverse, for example.  For a competent private party, I think it would be quite uncommon not to simul a lot of that terrain.  Not sure what it looks like to guide something like that, seems challenging to balance speed and guide/client safety (I have huge respect for professionals who work in that type of terrain).

Guiding something like LTF or any other wall is fairly straightforward as you mostly just lead and belay everything.  Sustained multitransitional terrain (blended 2nd-5th class) through a variety of mediums is definitely the trickiest to guide, but personally I find the most interesting/engaging because of how much constant problem solving it entails.  You're constantly adjusting the rope length and technique to suit the terrain you're in, the conditions in the moment, and how your client is doing, so it keeps you on your toes.  I've heard of some guides simuling big routes in AK and the Alps, but I think that's fairly rare.  Guides simuling shorter, less committing routes (ie the TFT, Grand Traverse, etc)  is probably the marker of a lazy or less experienced guide. (outside the context of coaching a client on how to simul)

Kyle Tarrywrote:

I think routes like this can be climbed without simuling, it's just a matter of time.  You probably can't climb the Cassin in a day or the SE Face of Lotus in <12 hours without simuling, but you can climb routes like that with little to none of it if you are willing to spend more time out.  If that's not your jam I totally get it, just suggesting that simuling isn't required to get routes done, just to get them done faster.  I only mention the routes above because I have done both of them with minimal simuling, so it's definitely possible, you just need a bit more time.

Ok, I’m genuinely not meaning to be pedantic but this is a really excellent nuance to my point.

The Cassin is everything that fits the description. And virtually no one does it without simul climbing large sections. Particularly the upper route after the rock bands, but also the cowboy arete, and often large amounts of the Japanese couloir up to the crux ice step. I’ve not done the route yet, but have made the trip once prepared to do it. In all the research I’ve done, I’ve never seen a single account where it was pitched out. Most parties are racing the weather, and many aren’t fast enough to get away without getting hammered by storms a bit.

Even if not racing the weather, much of the upper terrain is easy enough that pitching it out isn’t warranted and virtually all parties opt to climb simultaneously. Many forego the rope, but many others continue roped up.

I see your point about it all being a matter of time, but time is generally considered to be against us on the bigger routes. 

NateCwrote:

The Cassin is everything that fits the description. And virtually no one does it without simul climbing large sections. Particularly the upper route after the rock bands, but also the cowboy arete, and often large amounts of the Japanese couloir up to the crux ice step. I’ve not done the route yet, but have made the trip once prepared to do it. In all the research I’ve done, I’ve never seen a single account where it was pitched out.

I think it could be climbed in any manner of styles.  It likely depends a lot on conditions too.  At 15,000 ft with a pack on it’s really tough to move continuously, and the second can move faster with a belay than simuling.    I think we did like 30 pitches over the course of the route; we did very little simuling in the Japanese Couloir, but we did simul the Cowboy Arete.  Everything above the second rock band is solo snow hiking, I doubt many parties use a rope there.  There are other bits of easy low angle snow that are a no brainer to simul, like the hanging glacier and between the rock bands.  This terrain is mostly upright walking or maybe some high daggering.

I bet if you ask around you’ll get all manner of answers, that’s really all I am saying.  It’s not mandatory to do one particular thing.  Even in recent years some parties have been up there for 5 days or more, which is plenty of time to pitch out almost everything.