Mixed protection?

Cams won’t hold in iced cracks and may be less reliable in snowy cracks. How essential are hexes, nuts, iron for mixed climbing?

Should every mixed alpine climber have some hexes on them or are cams sufficient enough to risk them not holding a fall in wet, snowy crack? If so which hexes nuts, iron pro would you have on the rack in addition to some cans?

for reference in targeting m4-m6 routes this season

Ray Lovpalwrote:

Cams won’t hold in iced cracks and may be less reliable in snowy cracks. How essential are hexes, nuts, iron for mixed climbing?

Should every mixed alpine climber have some hexes on them or are cams sufficient enough to risk them not holding a fall in wet, snowy crack? If so which hexes nuts, iron pro would you have on the rack in addition to some cans?

for reference in targeting m4-m6 routes this season

The rock medium matters in this question so it's difficult to answer as you have phrased it. 

Nuts are still essential. Hexes still have a place, but it depends on the general conditions. In certain granite areas, it's often easy enough to find cracks without ice in them to effectively use and trust cams. In areas known for more blown, rimed, ice conditions hexes can be effective in situations where nearly every aspect is going to have ice into it and cams are less reliable. 

Pitons have a place in mixed climbing and it's worth learning how to use them. Beaks particularly. 

Scottish winter climbers do lots of mixed routes.  The rock is generally icy and often rime coated.  

Almost all of them have a winter rack that includes nuts and hexes.  

NateCwrote:

The rock medium matters in this question so it's difficult to answer as you have phrased it. 

Nuts are still essential. Hexes still have a place, but it depends on the general conditions. In certain granite areas, it's often easy enough to find cracks without ice in them to effectively use and trust cams. In areas known for more blown, rimed, ice conditions hexes can be effective in situations where nearly every aspect is going to have ice into it and cams are less reliable. 

Pitons have a place in mixed climbing and it's worth learning how to use them. Beaks particularly. 

Got it. I’m not as familiar with the rock of mixed routes as opposed to how the routes form I.e. high windy area that would blow snow and water all over creating the time/verglas. Thinking here mainly about the hub ice destinations like ouray, Canmore, Banff, Quebec, Cody, hyalite, Adirondacks, and the whites. I don’t know how variable rock types are in these areas though.

It’s more so a concern about have a variety of pro on mixed routes based on what you’re unsure to encounter since routes change with conditions and you can often find yourself climbing while it’s snowing, wet rock, or high wind blows powder on routes where you may be climbing on rock.

Ray Lovpalwrote:

Got it. I’m not as familiar with the rock of mixed routes as opposed to how the routes form I.e. high windy area that would blow snow and water all over creating the time/verglas. Thinking here mainly about the hub ice destinations like ouray, Canmore, Banff, Quebec, Cody, hyalite, Adirondacks, and the whites. I don’t know how variable rock types are in these areas though.

It’s more so a concern about have a variety of pro on mixed routes based on what you’re unsure to encounter since routes change with conditions and you can often find yourself climbing while it’s snowing, wet rock, or high wind blows powder on routes where you may be climbing on rock.

Interestingly enough, with all the destinations you have listed you'll likely want a selection of all the types of protection available so you can customize for the destination. 

Canmore and Banff likely have similar rack needs and similar rock. Limestone which historically has seen more use of pins and passive protection (cams still work at times.)

Cody and Hyalite are areas I'm fairly familiar with. In Hyalite you'll find a general mix of cams, nuts, bolts, and a few pins in areas (it seems to be the harder mixed lines though). Cody rock can be really shit, pins get more use there than other areas. I admittedly haven't done as much mixed in Cody though. 

The Adirondacks and whites are areas I haven't visited so I can't offer as much insight there. However, if you're equipping your rack for the above areas I have a hard time thinking the rack wouldn't cover these areas. 

I have never winter climbed in the Canadian Rockies, but I have climbed there extensively in the summer season, from classic front range moderate rock routes to technical north face routes on the major peaks. A couple each of knifeblades, long lost arrows (or even better the LA's soft iron cousins and/or smc shallow angles) and maybe a 1/2 and 5/8 baby angle. These are what I found most useful on technical summer alpine routes. Fixed gear on popular climbs is much more common than any other place I have been, so on those maybe just a knifeblade or 2 and a soft iron LA, if any pins at all. I've never been to Europe. I suspect on regularly climbed winter routes that would also be the case, but I don't know.

The Canadian Rockies are a serious place, and an outstanding place to become an alpinist. Start on easy trade routes. And listen to the locals. If I would have done that, I would have progressed quicker. 

And cams and nuts do get most of the rock protection taken care of. 

Hooks, Tricams, spectres, Stoppers, Slings.

Screws, nuts, 2 or 3 blades have been my winning trifecta.

Mostly scratching around AK. 

Ray Lovpalwrote:

Thinking here mainly about the hub ice destinations like ouray, Canmore, Banff, Quebec, Cody, hyalite, Adirondacks, and the whites. I don’t know how variable rock types are in these areas though.

The rock type will be extremely variable across those areas, from high quality granite to garbage mud rock.

Your best bet is just going to be to start out carrying a fairly big rack with a lot of options, and then once you have more experience you'll be able to dial it back.

Like regular climbing, the necessity of pitons on single-pitch trade routes at the crag is generally pretty low.  There are exceptions to this, but generally at the crag you're not doing a ton of pounding and removing pins.  If pins are used, they might be fixed gear on the route.  When in doubt, look at the guidebook and MP for rack information.

I've used a lot of passive gear and iron on alpine routes, but my experience at many of those crags is that I don't usually need a big rack of hexes and pins.  Cams and nuts, certainly.  Those are big and diverse areas though, you'll need to narrow it down if you want good specific feedback.

you can often find yourself climbing while it’s snowing, wet rock, or high wind blows powder on routes where you may be climbing on rock.

If you're newer to mixed, it might be good to stick to days with better conditions initially.  You don't need to climb single pitch routes in the middle of a blowing snowstorm, you can always come back later.  Once you have some familiarity and comfort, add less ideal conditions as another variable.

Tricams go so hard in icy cracks

NateCwrote:

The rock medium matters in this question so it's difficult to answer as you have phrased it. 

Nuts are still essential. Hexes still have a place, but it depends on the general conditions. In certain granite areas, it's often easy enough to find cracks without ice in them to effectively use and trust cams. In areas known for more blown, rimed, ice conditions hexes can be effective in situations where nearly every aspect is going to have ice into it and cams are less reliable. 

Pitons have a place in mixed climbing and it's worth learning how to use them. Beaks particularly. 

Why is it that beaks are especially useful in this setting?

I can testify that tricams can hold a fall half on rock half ice.

timothy fisherwrote:

I can testify that tricams can hold a fall half on rock half ice.

I’ve never used tricams before so I think I may want to take them out on trad first before lacing them as pro on mixed to be familiar with setting them and knowing when it’ll be bomber or not

Preston Leatherswrote:

Why is it that beaks are especially useful in this setting?

In the other sizes of pitons there are other forms of protection that tend to work without being destructive. Beaks tend to fit in the small cracks that aren't protectable with other options, and are in more solid areas of rock (keeping in mind that a lot of mixed climbing takes place on really shitty rock.)

I used to like to carry a few knife blades and a couple baby angles when doing high alpine mixed in Colorado. Placed them every now and then.  Supplemented with nuts and a few tricams.