Reporting Bad Partners: Ethical or Not?

Your partner failed you in some way, say they dropped you and others, or regularly disregard safety protocol, or are always late, or talk up their climbing ability and get in over their head, etc. You personally choose not to climb with them anymore. Do you report them to mutual friends? Do you broadcast it on the forums? The answer to that seems no, because I do not see regular posts on “bad partners.” Why? Is it not a moral obligation? Someone could die or get seriously hurt from these “bad partners.” Why don’t we create a blacklist of all of them? It would make everyone safer. Sure you might hurt a lot of feelings, and maybe some people might get falsely accused, but isn’t it more important that people don’t die to bad belayers? Why are we considering feelings over catastrophic injury? What kind of compassion is that?

Now, if you have an answer to this paradox, let he who is without sin cast the first stone…

Sure you might hurt a lot of feelings, and maybe some people might get falsely accused, but isn’t it more important that people don’t die to bad belayers?

Not really. There's too many damn people as it is. What's a few less, in the grand scheme?

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

Not really. There's too many damn people as it is. What's a few less, in the grand scheme?

Good on ya! It’s refreshing to see someone step forward and offer to be dropped to their death to reduce the population.

So many selfish bastards keep going on and on about, “I don’t want to die,” or “just learn to belay!” Your courage will be remembered, Mr Nunes.

Are people often dieing due to bad belayers? 

Word gets round, eventually.  But a public internet forum is not a place for a subjective list like that.  I've been climbing in perfect safety for more than thirty years, and I'm sure I'd get put on the list on Day One. No Helmet?--list  No leg loops?--list  No locking 'biners? no autoblock when rappelling? (though I do make some sweet technora autoblock loops)--you get the picture.

"Safety protocol" is a trend that shifts.  Once, climbing anything but ice in helmets was laughable (still is, really...), but I see pictures of people on Separate Reality, where nothing could possibly fall on you from above, wearing a lid!!!!  There was a time when everyone was toting a short loop of cord they called a "prussik".  No one ever used it, but there it was, getting in the way.  We all have different standards for safety, and a list where you or I were branded as unsafe because we didn't carry a prussik or a helmet would just be stupid.

External example: some say that it's never safe to sail a boat without a lifejacket.  Mostly sailing instructors who are trying to keep their insurance premiums down.  But this has bled into the larger sailing world, so that now it often takes me a while to demonstrate what a specious notion that is.  Eventually I win the battle and demonstrate that I'm safer with my setup than they are with their auto-inflatable vests, but in the meantime I'm regarded as unsafe and irresponsible.  Which I'm demonstrably not.

Better keep the subjective opinions of safety to word-of-mouth.

It always mystifies me the number of people that are willing to put their safety and indeed their life in the hands of a stranger.  I've never done it, and I don't think I ever will.  Everyone has different risk tolerances.  My own experiences tell me that the more carnage one sees in climbing, the more one knows what can and does happen with *some* regularity, the more reserved they'll be with accepting risk in a variety of scenarios.  Partner selection is but one of them.

Adam Rwrote:

Are people often dieing due to bad belayers? 

Often?  No, probably just once.

Ben Zartmanwrote:

External example: some say that it's never safe to sail a boat without a lifejacket.  Mostly sailing instructors who are trying to keep their insurance premiums down.  But this has bled into the larger sailing world, so that now it often takes me a while to demonstrate what a specious notion that is.  Eventually I win the battle and demonstrate that I'm safer with my setup than they are with their auto-inflatable vests, but in the meantime I'm regarded as unsafe and irresponsible.  Which I'm demonstrably not.

Better keep the subjective opinions of safety to word-of-mouth.

https://www.cdc.gov/drowning/risk-factors/index.html

Get outta here about that cowboy life jacket shit on a forum for rock climbing. I sailed for four years and now I work on tugboats. Life jackets save lives. 

Sure, there are times I dont wear one. Calm day, shore is a swim away, high rails on the boat, water is warm so I wont lose mobility in mere minutes, but on the whole? I've read enough accident reports now, I'm not on deck at night or bad weather without a jacket and a light if I, god forbid, go over. You sail, you know how hard it is to spot single head in the water on a boat. Add waves, add poor visibility?  

Obviously do what you want. But on a forum with people perhaps not familiar with water hazards, it bothers me to see any suggestion to eschew what is one of the best damn ways to not die out there. 

Hey here’s some real life shit for you all to consider…

My friend died around 2 years ago. He paid the ultimate price. He trusted someone that he just met who was new to trad climbing. He got lowered off their trad anchor after he cleaned the route on the way up, all three anchor cams popped, and he died. My friend was experienced, but was either far too trusting or far too lackadaisical (I wasn’t there - but I’d guess a combination) to check their anchor and he paid for it with his life.

The kid was young, mid ish 20s. New to trad climbing.

Should he get put on some Internet forum list? Quick reaction - someone might have added him.

But who gets to decide when the line goes from “bad partner” to…hey sometimes not knowing something can get someone fucking killed - and that’s just the fucking world of climbing some fucked up times. And it fucking sucks.

There is SO much grey area. I LOVE to make my world as black and white as I can because it gives me comfort. Simple is comfortable. Black and white is easy to understand. But a lot of this type of shit…it’s just not that. Keep your head on a swivel. Keep yourself safe. If you’re not feeling safe, live to climb another day. 

Ben Zartmanwrote:

Better keep the subjective opinions of safety to word-of-mouth.

What about the objective ones?  

"I came off just above a bolt and fell 35 feet"  Is that subjective?  Nope.

"No gear pulled and I was cratered"  Is that subjective?  Nope.

I think this is what we're talking about, not "I was following a route and one of the cams walked and was hard to remove" or "there was too much slack out".  Those are subjective, the former, not so much.

I'm with you about subjective scenarios.  But most of the time when people get mangled or killed, someone fucked up big time.  Some time it's the climber, a lot of the time it's the belayer.  So, yeah, if someone has "a mile, not a smile" of slack out, that's "subjective" until it results in an injury, then a debate can occur.  There are probably waaayyyy more of instances of subjectivity, than a clear line being crossed of acceptable action/behavior (to your point).  But yeah, if there was a list of people that have cratered climbers, I think most of us would A) consider that objective and not subjective and B) would find it useful in, you know, staying alive.

Oh, yes…definitely post it on the forums. It’s your ethical responsibility. What could go wrong?

Haven’t posted about bad partners here. Then again, I’ve never found partners here. I’ve told people in my local climbing community about bad partners though. 

If I was aware that somebody dropped their partner, was an inattentive belayer, had a habit of epic-ing due to overstating their abilities, etc - basically stuff that legitimately puts a partner in danger, I would ensure my friends were aware of it yes, as long as I could verify it to be factual and/or had experienced it myself by climbing with that person. I don't care about hurting the feelings of the person responsible for creating dangerous situations. What we do is far too risky as is, there's no time for minding people's feelings if they are a danger to themselves and others.

Would I post it on a forum? Absolutely not. That's opening a can of worms and creating all sorts of trouble.

Entry #1 everytime I've climbed with David Weisberg someone has died

Jonathan Walker wrote:

So you can acknowledge that people have different standards for safety, and yet you're just as prone to ridicule people for wearing a helmet just because you don't deem it necessary. Interesting.

Well, sure.  Any standard tighter than mine is susceptible of open mockery.  Feel free to mock as well.

Orion Beltwrote:

https://www.cdc.gov/drowning/risk-factors/index.html

Get outta here about that cowboy life jacket shit on a forum for rock climbing. I sailed for four years and now I work on tugboats. Life jackets save lives. 

Sure, there are times I dont wear one. Calm day, shore is a swim away, high rails on the boat, water is warm so I wont lose mobility in mere minutes, but on the whole? I've read enough accident reports now, I'm not on deck at night or bad weather without a jacket and a light if I, god forbid, go over. You sail, you know how hard it is to spot single head in the water on a boat. Add waves, add poor visibility?  

Obviously do what you want. But on a forum with people perhaps not familiar with water hazards, it bothers me to see any suggestion to eschew what is one of the best damn ways to not die out there. 

A public forum is for public opinions.  My opinion is that there are better ways to stay safe than a blanket prohibition on going sans life jacket.  You have a few years on a tugboat.  I have thirty years of seafaring, both privately and professionally.  My opinion is, at least, as valid as yours.  But a internet list of whom was unsafe wouldn't be able to account for the experience/knowledge/competence I have to back it up--it couldn't possibly be nuanced enough.

Ben Zartmanwrote:

A public forum is for public opinions.  My opinion is that there are better ways to stay safe than a blanket prohibition on going sans life jacket.  You have a few years on a tugboat.  I have thirty years of seafaring, both privately and professionally.  My opinion is, at least, as valid as yours.  But a internet list of whom was unsafe wouldn't be able to account for the experience/knowledge/competence I have to back it up--it couldn't possibly be nuanced enough.

What's your setup that you refered to in the other post as better than a life jacket? idc about thread drift 

Adam Rwrote:

What's your setup that you refered to in the other post as better than a life jacket? idc about thread drift 

Uh, being a rad dude? Obviously.

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

Your partner failed you in some way, say they dropped you and others, or regularly disregard safety protocol, or are always late, or talk up their climbing ability and get in over their head, etc. You personally choose not to climb with them anymore. Do you report them to mutual friends? Do you broadcast it on the forums? The answer to that seems no, because I do not see regular posts on “bad partners.” Why? Is it not a moral obligation? Someone could die or get seriously hurt from these “bad partners.” Why don’t we create a blacklist of all of them? It would make everyone safer. Sure you might hurt a lot of feelings, and maybe some people might get falsely accused, but isn’t it more important that people don’t die to bad belayers? Why are we considering feelings over catastrophic injury? What kind of compassion is that?

Parody aside, why do you think that info like this is NOT already shared? A forum like MP isn’t the place for it, because 99.9% of people reading the forum will never encounter N from Cleveland (initial picked randomly).

But in a local community the word would absolutely get around. People share stories.

“Hey, did you hear, so-and-so broke her ankle on Thursday? Yeah, such a bummer, right as the season is starting… dropped by Z, I heard? Do you know the details?”

“Hey, you and J aren’t climbing together anymore? You guys used to be so tight! What’s up?” — “oh yeah, I got so tired of dealing with him being late every freaking time!”  

It works in reverse, too. In a local climbing Facebook group, it’s always reassuring when sometime asks for partners, and one or two people chime in to say that they had climbed with X, and he’s an awesome dude, and a solid partner. 

Adam Rwrote:

What's your setup that you refered to in the other post as better than a life jacket? idc about thread drift 

If there's any chance of going overboard, I tie in short with a swami and daisy.  It's preventative, rather than reactive--far safer to stay aboard than float around disconnected from the boat.

Ben Zartmanwrote:

If there's any chance of going overboard, I tie in short with a swami and daisy.  It's preventative, rather than reactive--far safer to stay aboard than float around disconnected from the boat.

Oh wow that does seem better