Large Groups Sessioning Climbs??

lpkzo Owrote:

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There was never a problem to solution anyways. I asked: climbing in big groups:  Is this a thing now? Are we seeing this all over the place or is this unique to COR and it’s errant anchor situation? If it’s unique to COR then I suppose yes there may be some solutions the park could consider. If this is everywhere these days, tough nuts, the culture has changed. 

I think it's becoming a thing in more and more places, sadly.

However, now that you know to climb harder, and in obscure areas, and during low demand windows, you should be golden for a bit; though I must confess I do worry that recipe won't work much longer now that the secret on avoiding crowds has been broadcast on this forum, sheeesh.  ;)

Connor Dobsonwrote:

The advice you received from many was quite reasonable and to the point, hardly "mansplained".

First, another good piece of advice is that being more assertive tends to work wonders in communicating your intentions and getting what you want.

……

I see many people being too timid in person about this and then complaining on the internet after the fact.

I think you’re the one not taking into account the situation. A lone woman with a 5 year old child encounters some a**holes in the woods/cliffs who don’t understand basic human decency of sharing a public space. I bet the 5 year old knows better how to share things.

I think it’s all too easy to understand why someone like that would be all but reluctant to be confrontational while subconsciously calculating the probabilities and risks associated with a novel observation of pathological behavior. There is also a nontrivial percentage of the population that are highly conflict averse, a crippling fear of even any awkward tension that could result in triggering someone in public IRL. And it’s obvious why it’s safer to ask on the internet for anyone… i don’t know why that needs to be some point of shame.

Bb Cc wrote:

Who’da known he was a she… Thank you Lou Reed.

I think it’s good practice to click on a profile before responding to a profile you’ve not seen to make sure they’re not a bot. It’s clear she’s not of course, but also quite clear she’s a lady. And a lady alone with a child in the woods/cliffs is probably not something to smirk at or shame. Wish people on MP were less interested in shaming.

I have spent a grand total of one day at City of Rocks and had a similar experience at the base of Sinocranium.  Luckily this group was self-aware enough to let my buddy and I work through but it was a group of 10ish people, of which only two had ever climbed before.  The freshest racks of quickdraws I've ever seen.  I thought it was pretty insane to bring a bunch of people who had never climbed before to a multipitch but I guess from reading this thread it makes sense.  Very easy first few pitches and bolts/bolted anchors, which seems to be rare at City of Rocks.  Not exactly the same scenario because these people were nice and let us jump them in line.  But it was odd.  Seems like the area might be more conducive to that since the routes are relatively spread out and from my limited knowledge not all of them are very accessible.

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

I think you’re the one not taking into account the situation. A lone woman with a 5 year old child encounters some a**holes in the woods/cliffs who don’t understand basic human decency of sharing a public space. I bet the 5 year old knows better how to share things.

I think it’s all too easy to understand why someone like that would be all but reluctant to be confrontational while subconsciously calculating the probabilities and risks associated with a novel observation of pathological behavior. There is also a nontrivial percentage of the population that are highly conflict averse, a crippling fear of even any awkward tension that could result in triggering someone in public IRL. And it’s obvious why it’s safer to ask on the internet for anyone… i don’t know why that needs to be some point of shame.

People are not mind readers nor are they generally axe murderers. Being assertive isn't going to get you killed but will be infinitely more likely to get your intention across than complaining on the internet. 

I don't climb in groups but if someone and their 5 year old kid came up to me and said they wanted to get on a route because blah blah blah it's their first time, I'd make an effort to make that happen. If they just ask what I'm up to today, I'll answer that question. 

Asking on the internet doesn't actually do anything, it's a fart in the wind.

rock climbing wrote:

Man I feel like I’m in line at City of Rocks behind a party of of 12 not on the porch waiting for the caffeine to kick in.

Relax. Maybe it is time to talk about traffic stress syndrome before it turns it to climbing rage.

Connor, it is time to pack you bag and go climbing. Perfect weather in Louisville today. 

Unfortunately I'm out of town for work. And just as things are cooling down :'( 

This has been a common complaint of veteran climbers for at least the last decade.  I'm no exception.  Eventually I learned that climbers are lazy and new climbers for the most part, don't climb that hard.  

You have two choices essentially:

1. You can add to the compendium of complaints and utter your grievance into the ether, because this shit is NOT going to change (please see last decade of complaints only to have it still be complained about on a regular basis with no change in behavior) or...
2. Realize that climbers are lazy, get up early, bang out your warmups on the classics, then once the hordes arrive, start projecting.

Simple solution. Instead of fighting the (supposed) proposed fixed gear bans on public lands,  EMBRACE THEM!!!!! Yeah I am being a bit of a devil's advocate. I does seem to be out of balance........ I mean user convenience seems to be the prime driving factor. Although people attempt to hide that  behind the "safety" rationalization. If it was "less safe"?? or certainly if it was less convenient,  there would be fewer people out there.

IF the federal land managers were serious about reducing backcountry wilderness use, that's even easier. Quit rescuing people. They are not under any legal obligation, that I  know of, to conduct wilderness rescues. 

Yes I realize the very next time I go out it could be my ass on the line, but go ahead tell me if that's what you HAVE to do to float your boat.

lpkzo Owrote:

..... I was interested in a cultural discussion on that topic if it is in fact the new way.  There are numerous climbing “rules” and ethics that have and undoubtedly will continue to evolve with time. I always find the discussions surrounding that super interesting (why I love the runout podcast). I’ll try and do better next time with my question posing. I am thrilled to see that the culture at MP has remained steadfast. 

Cheers.
-selfish East Idahoan

The practice is not unique to COR or climbing in particular.   The most prevalent generation out there these days (twenty-somethings) is just far more likely to organize as much larger groups than previous generations.  Whether it be climbing, backcountry skiing, backpacking, hiking.   Maybe, like everything, its just a result of cell phones and social media.   Far easier to wrangle up a team of eight on a group chat Friday night that it was in the days of land lines.

CF Burnsteinwrote:

I think it's becoming a thing in more and more places, sadly.

However, now that you know to climb harder, and in obscure areas, and during low demand windows, you should be golden for a bit; though I must confess I do worry that recipe won't work much longer now that the secret on avoiding crowds has been broadcast on this forum, sheeesh.  ;)

Hahahaha, I will be laughing about this one for a while! We are SO screwed now that the secret is out. 

Darin Berdinka wrote:

The practice is not unique to COR or climbing in particular.   The most prevalent generation out there these days (twenty-somethings) is just far more likely to organize as much larger groups than previous generations.  Whether it be climbing, backcountry skiing, backpacking, hiking.   Maybe, like everything, its just a result of cell phones and social media.   Far easier to wrangle up a team of eight on a group chat Friday night that it was in the days of land lines.

Hmm, interesting. I wonder if it’s that the mentoring process has changed or is non-existent, so some of the old school unspoken norms aren’t getting passed on? I for sure have noticed there are very few people who lead and know how to clean routes, which seem like essential foundations of climbing. I assumed it was because I moved to an area with a much smaller scene, but perhaps it’s just how things have gone in general. Even when I have climbed in a group of 4 or 5 we all generally preferred to lead so would pair up and each do separate climbs, just choose an area with several we wanted to do, meaning that even then there was no group of 5+ mobbing one route.

I did Sinocranium on Thursday, we were the only folks on it so that was great. Doesn’t seem awesome to haul 10 newbies up that, but glad they let you pass. Perhaps part of the lack of or change in mentorship is less safety awareness. Definitely seems like there is a lot of sketchy stuff going on. Seen some insane stuff on the lower Exum the past couple of years. Watching the couple lapping the easy trad route was kind of terrifying, and one of them that did lead on gear also did not know how to clean the anchors or the gear off the route. I’d argue you shouldn’t lead trad if you can’t do those things, but to each their own. I did offer to clean it initially thinking that was the issue, but was told they intended to do it more times regardless.

Again, to the uppity folks, I didn’t post to piss in the wind or solve any specific problem. I thought it was an interesting topic of discussion if it is the new norm, and hoped to ruminate on how/why we arrived in this place. If that doesn’t interest you or irritates you, feel free to scroll on. You came here of your own volition to read, so it’s not clear what you think you are accomplishing by posting that this is a dumb topic. No one forced you to read through 2 pages on a topic you think is irrelevant. For me, it has become relevant given the small climbers in my household who require easy and accessible routes, and we will for sure plan accordingly in the future if this is the new norm just as we did the next day…. Or I’ll just tell my kids to get better at climbing so it’s a non-issue, lol. 

Eric Craigwrote:

Simple solution. Instead of fighting the (supposed) proposed fixed gear bans on public lands,  EMBRACE THEM!!!!! Yeah I am being a bit of a devil's advocate. I does seem to be out of balance........ I mean user convenience seems to be the prime driving factor. Although people attempt to hide that  behind the "safety" rationalization. If it was "less safe"?? or certainly if it was less convenient,  there would be fewer people out there.

IF the federal land managers were serious about reducing backcountry wilderness use, that's even easier. Quit rescuing people. They are not under any legal obligation, that I  know of, to conduct wilderness rescues. 

Yes I realize the very next time I go out it could be my ass on the line, but go ahead tell me if that's what you HAVE to do to float your boat.

You’re probably right. I always have this internal debate (especially living in a small town), but in general if you build it they will come. As it pertains to climbing, more accessible routes would likely just mean more people showing up so it’s a never ending cycle. 

lpkzo Owrote:

As it pertains to climbing, more accessible routes would likely just mean more people showing up so it’s a never ending cycle. 

More accessible routes will spread out noobs and toddlers among more areas, it will reduce crowding. 

Connor Dobsonwrote:

People are not mind readers nor are they generally axe murderers. Being assertive isn't going to get you killed but will be infinitely more likely to get your intention across than complaining on the internet.

You’re missing the point. Personality, psychology, and personal feelings dictate human tendencies and willingness to engage in certain activities, regardless of your rationalizations. Some people are just not assertive, and have less desire to be so.

Asking on the internet doesn't actually do anything, it's a fart in the wind.

Many people get comfort knowing they are not alone, as well as the fact that she clearly explained that she’s out of the scene for a while and isn’t scrolling MP threads like the rest of us weirdos. Again, if you don’t like it, why are you complaining about it directly to the individual to the point of dunking on them? Just click on a different thread. It’s not like MP is some limited resource and the OP is using up space without sharing, like the routes at a crag.

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

You’re missing the point. Personality, psychology, and personal feelings dictate human tendencies and willingness to engage in certain activities, regardless of your rationalizations. Some people are just not assertive, and have less desire to be so.

For sure, though I am not known irl as a demure and passive person, for better or for worse. The group I did walk up to seemed annoyed I even spoke to them, and as I said above the offer to clean the route for the couple was denied. I will say having never experienced a log jam of 5 or more people on a single route, my first instinct was to just walk away. When you’re climbing one route with a group that large no one needs to be taking extra breaks since they are each sitting at least an hour between burns, so it seemed unlikely anyone would be amenable to waiting even more. That’s projection though… if I were climbing with that many people I wouldn't want to wait any longer than needed to climb. And, if you are so oblivious to climbing etiquette that you have that many people on one route, it seems unlikely that you have much awareness that anyone else may want to do it that day, and even less likely that me being extra extra assertive is going to yield any result. And again, if climbing etiquette has changed so significantly, then why would they let anyone else rotate in? This is normal practice and there’s no reason to have any remorse about it. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t ask, but isn’t exactly a scenario I’m really going to put my foot down and insist.

Other food for thought, most of these groups seemed quite inexperienced. I have a tiny bit of reservation about trusting their anchor, rope, etc with my young kid. Would probably prefer to put it up myself or at least climb it first to make sure there’s no shenanigans going on at the anchor, but then that is asking to take more of their time. 

When I crag with the best I know, they often project a single route for a few hours in groups as big as 8. We arn't getting in other people's way because the routes are hard enough that it's rare for others to show up, when they have, we've made friends and they often come with us to other places!

I also know tourist climbers who are quite offended by sharing crags, and don't understand you need to be social to filter by ★★★★. The vacationers often hike somewhere, find that there are others, then go somewhere else. Or wake up early enough to be alone before seeing their shadow and retreating to what ever 4.9★ $$ watering hole they can find on google. And there's nothing wrong with either of those I think.

My hot take, Strangers are more friendly than are given credit. I've been rescued, had Stranger save my gear, shared crash pads, share ropes, give beta, directions, and belays.

J W wrote:

It’s not a breech of etiquette to climb with a group of five or more people on one route.

First come, first served is neither a new idea, nor is it exclusive to climbing. And we want to maintain this ethic, frankly. It’s better than the alternatives as it holds the most egalitarian and practical potential.

It was definitely an unspoken rule when I was coming up in the climbing world to not monopolize a route, and as I was fortunate enough to have never encountered this outside of boyscout groups or people projecting, so it was a new experience for me this past weekend. But the decade or so that I did a lot of cragging was still during a time where almost all people out climbing were also leading, so groups together paired off and did different climbs. Even my friends that didn’t really climb but would come out occasionally knew how to clean routes and follow easy stuff. 

I don’t dispute that first come first serve is how it should be, but it was certainly instilled in myself and the region I played in to do your route and move on to the next (again outside of projecting). If you were “rude” enough to leave draws on the route but you weren’t currently climbing it, you’d let others jump on it. Even on busy days in popular places there was very little waiting around, maybe just a bit of strategizing.

So, perhaps I have just been tremendously lucky these past 20 years, or perhaps the region I came of age in had it’s own unspoken policies that were unique to the locale. If nothing else, it seems like a big change to see so many people out- maybe even the majority- unable to lead, clean a route, rappel, etc. To me that’s the new bottleneck, not the crowds but the distribution of the crowds. Pretty unique to the easy and accessible climbs at least, so luckily I only have to worry about it on the couple of times a year I take the kids out. 

There's a difference between a group hanging a rope on a pitch and camping out for awhile ( can even be just 2 ppl)( and being proprietary  about it) while others are around, and a larger contingent each having their turn on a  climb. The first is bad form,  no matter what decade it is. The second isn't necessarily rude, at all. A lot really just depends on manners, which is subjective. 

At the lower end of the grade scale this is definitely common these days, I think it’s a combination of things, but mainly just the sheer number of beginner climbers out there. Gyms and freesolo and the Olympics= a ton of new folks in the sport, which creates a ton of traffic on lower grades which incentivizes this type of behavior.

I think it’s generally poor form to climb in a big group, but not the worst if you’re friendly and proactive about letting others work in, unfortunately in my experience big group and poor crag etiquette often go hand in hand.

Approaching a pair and getting told you can’t get a burn in because they are each getting on it multiple times is outrageous, but I have seen this happen before as well.

My motto is always, “I should have gotten up earlier.”  A group of 10 top ropers isn’t any different than 5 parties ahead of you. A party of 2 doing 3 laps or whatever isn’t any different than 3 parties ahead of me.  I have 3 kids so I know the frustration. But it’s a good life lesson I teach my kids when the only climb we can do is taken and we have to wait. Now they will also hopefully have the same motto as me and think they should have gotten up earlier. That being said, most people are nice enough to let me get a lap or lead in as long as I am willing to put the rope back up for them if for some reason I am desperate for the climb which is pretty rare—I just tend to move on. And I have never had anyone make me and my kids go home without climbing by taking up the one climb all day when they see we don’t have a lot of options.  And I guess my kids and I are that one leader with string of followers group now that I think about it. But I have never had anyone give us attitude about that too. For the most part, climbing community is considerate and nice.