How much should a campsite cost?

Ben B wrote:

That's why limits on duration of stay need to be enforced. Public land means everyone has the right to enjoy it, but no one has the right to wreck it

Okay. How are we going to pay for that enforcement? I'm sure we're in total agreement that the BLM and NFS and NPS deserve lots of budget from the Federal government. But given the actual financial reality of things?

Just one concrete example. I'm a member of a dispersed camping group on FB. I was HORRIFIED to learn that many of the people who are camping on BLM land were taking their accumulated shit from their bucket toilets and BURYING the plastic bags out on the NFS and BLM land! Which, of course, totally defeats the purpose of that kind of latrine. If that's the common denominator of intelligence we're talking about, I think I'd much rather have the damage concentrated on a few more pay campgrounds with the infrastructure of toilets and such. And lets not even talk about how the average human seems to treat public bathrooms.

Martin le Roux wrote:

Unless it's being used by the government for some purpose, or been leased to a cattle rancher, or a mining company, or oil or gas company, or ski resort operator, or some other concessionaire...

Or, even, if it was laid out in a grid and some private land has criss crossing corners with the public land and prohibits the public from crossing the corners. 

ben brownell wrote:

If prices were dropped or eliminated, what other arbitrary barrier would prevent full on squatter encampments - or is that prospect tolerable/necessary? 1-2 week stay limits seem reasonable most places, maybe longer allowances (or low enforcement) some areas where it's needed and sanitation is manageable...but it's a tricky balance with many looking to exploit. Personally I'd love to see more creative options like volunteer credit for fulfilling intermittent public land stewardship needs etc

The price of the fee and the length of allowable stay are two independent issues.  Putting them together as one is disingenuous.  

Moving people along when they've exceeded the time limit is what rangers and police should be doing independent of the fee.  

$5/day MAX, for publicly owned land, regardless if there is a concessionaire and inclusive of all transaction fees. 

For private campgrounds of course they can charge whatever they want.

We have to vote for politicians who will support this. I fear, there is no support and elected officials don't care about it at all. So you get what we have here today. Its why I have an overlander.

Free camping isn't free.

Marc801 C wrote:

Depends where you are. BLM lands:

See all the purple in UT. Our “leaders” are suing the Feds for half. Like Cherokee said, be careful who you vote for. 

Rooms at Yosemite Lodge are costing $400+ and at the Ahwahnee  are $800 + a night and there are complaints about the quality .

Andrew Rice wrote:

Okay. How are we going to pay for that enforcement? 

How much is our military budget? Something like $900B a year? I think we have enough money for something like this 

Ben B wrote:

How much is our military budget? Something like $900B a year? I think we have enough money for something like this 

I didn't say we don't have the money. I said our country has demonstrated it doesn't have the will for it. Surely you saw my sentence that we agree the NPS, BLM, NFS deserve better budgets. But there's no political will. "Should" is not a political strategy. If you have a strategy to reapportion the federal budget to give military funding to the land management agencies I'm totally in support. 

Also, if you look at it from a cost vs. value perspective. Or a cost vs. cost to provide perspective, $25 or more is still being subsidized by the gov. Imagine the free market value of a campsite in the Yosemite Valley in peak season.

Gerald Adams wrote:

Rooms at Yosemite Lodge are costing $400+ and at the Ahwahnee  are $800 + a night and there are complaints about the quality .

I was at both those places in late June. The bathroom in the Yosemite Lodge cafeteria had puke on the floor that looked like it had been there for hours. The Ahwahnee was surrounded by loud construction. Jackhammers and such. I'd have been pissed if I were staying at either place for the going rates. 

Andrew Rice wrote:

I didn't say we don't have the money. I said our country has demonstrated it doesn't have the will for it. Surely you saw my sentence that we agree the NPS, BLM, NFS deserve better budgets. But there's no political will. "Should" is not a political strategy. If you have a strategy to reapportion the federal budget to give military funding to the land management agencies I'm totally in support.

Also, if you look at it from a cost vs. value perspective. Or a cost vs. cost to provide perspective, $25 or more is still being subsidized by the gov. Imagine the free market value of a campsite in the Yosemite Valley in peak season.

This. Are you willing to  make funding, maintenance and enforcement your #1 priority that you will solely vote on? Can you get others to do the same? Are you willing to pay more in taxes for it?

That's how it happens. 

“…a dispersed camping group on FB.”

(Shakes head in sad disbelief) No wonder so many dispersed camping sites are such shitholes these days.

I just returned from a two week road trip, mostly bivying at various dispersed camping sites. Every single one of them had toilet paper sitting on the ground within 50’ of the site. When land managers start regulating camping on these lands, it shouldn’t come as any surprise.

It’s quite simple- you pay what they charge. If you don’t like it go elsewhere.  

If you cannot then get involved in government and reduce camping fees. 

apogee wrote:

“…a dispersed camping group on FB.”

(Shakes head in sad disbelief) No wonder so many dispersed camping sites are such shitholes these days.

Just imagine if even 10% of the people dispersed camping do what I wrote about (burying their bucket toilet bags of shit in the ground instead of hauling out). So, instead of just a bunch of individual turds in the ground that MIGHT decompose over time they've now created plastic-wrapped IEDs of weeks worth buried feces and toilet paper. That, no doubt, often get dug up by bears, other scavengers, or the next guy trying to bury his turd bomb. It's so disheartening. And these fools think they're doing the right thing. 

Andrew Rice wrote:

... plastic-wrapped IEDs of weeks worth buried feces...

This has gotta become the next trending thing.  Memes.  Bumper stickers.  Hashtags.  Etc.

This doesn't really answer your question, so apologies up front.  However...

If you're paying like $45 a night for camping, just skip the gear, skip the camping, get two or three friends and get a hotel room with 2 queen beds.  Same price, maybe even cheaper. No extra gear needed, no drying out said gear if you get hosed in a downpour, and no creepy crawlies and some other person's snot rocket on the shower wall at disgusting campsite showers. Bonus points for ones that have saunas and breakfast the next morning.  

I made this move about 6 years ago and haven't looked back.  Good sleep, less gear needed, no extra $$ spent, or if it is a little bit extra, it's worth it to not have to deal with ^ that shit.

I understand that this isn't an option for all areas, but for the ones that it is an option for, try it out.  You might find you get better sleep, have better showers, etc.

Campfires can't be understated though, I do miss them.  Sometimes I show up at friends' sites, hang out by the fire, then retire to my hotel room afterwards.  Best of both worlds.  Am I soft?  Probably.  Do I care?  Nah.

Ok how about every adult citizen gets annual 5 free nights each at fed and state facilities, and can gift or sell if unused. More than that will cost, with increasing bulk purchase discount e.g. $25/night, 100/5 nights, 125/10 etc. Solved?! Just need to make it gamey and complex enough to spread the complaints around on multiple different aspects of the situation.

You guys are paying for camping!? Haha oh shit

ben brownell wrote:

Ok how about every adult citizen gets annual 5 free nights each at fed and state facilities, and can gift or sell if unused. More than that will cost, with increasing bulk purchase discount e.g. $25/night, 100/5 nights, 125/10 etc. Solved?! Just need to make it gamey and complex enough to spread the complaints around on multiple different aspects of the situation.

Sounds great. And the cost of monitoring/enforcing all of that would be almost nothing, right? 

Jake Jones wrote:

This doesn't really answer your question, so apologies up front.  However...

If you're paying like $45 a night for camping, just skip the gear, skip the camping, get two or three friends and get a hotel room with 2 queen beds.  Same price, maybe even cheaper. No extra gear needed, no drying out said gear if you get hosed in a downpour, and no creepy crawlies and some other person's snot rocket on the shower wall at disgusting campsite showers. Bonus points for ones that have saunas and breakfast the next morning.  

I made this move about 6 years ago and haven't looked back.  Good sleep, less gear needed, no extra $$ spent, or if it is a little bit extra, it's worth it to not have to deal with ^ that shit.

I understand that this isn't an option for all areas, but for the ones that it is an option for, try it out.  You might find you get better sleep, have better showers, etc.

Campfires can't be understated though, I do miss them.  Sometimes I show up at friends' sites, hang out by the fire, then retire to my hotel room afterwards.  Best of both worlds.  Am I soft?  Probably.  Do I care?  Nah.

Hotels are gross, going out to eat is unhealthy and expensive, and driving to the crag each morning kind of sucks.

On second thought, hotels are much better!