Climbing grades indoor vs outdoor

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Yes because climbing four V12’s in a day and climbing 5.13+ on gear are completely different things. Not comparable in my opinion. Two different metrics to value a climbers skills. Especially when we started this debate with an entirely different type of climbing in Olympic comp climbing.  

Which supports my point that the strongest comp climbers aren’t the ones crushing the hardest trad routes in the world, on average. The key difference in your argument and mine is that you’re speaking in hypotheticals and I’m speaking in actuality. 

No…because again, I am concerned with olympians who have done these things. 

I mean, I only stated I meant Olympians from the beginning….

The fact that you consider Megos a comp climber is my clue to end this conversation ✌️ 

The reason why you don’t see Olympians doing hard trad is because… wait for it… they were preparing for the Olympics! Why would they waste their time doing hard trad instead? I’m pretty sure that if they wanted to try hard trad, most of them would be doing so successfully within a few months. See the link I posted above, where some British ex-comp climbers (who weren’t Olympic level) freed the Nose within 6 months of retiring from comp climbing and learning how to trad climb. 

hifnowrote:

The reason why you don’t see Olympians doing hard trad is because… wait for it… they were preparing for the Olympics! Why would they waste their time doing hard trad instead? I’m pretty sure that if they wanted to try hard trad, most of them would be doing so successfully within a few months. See the link I posted above, where some British ex-comp climbers (who weren’t Olympic level) freed the Nose within 6 months of retiring from comp climbing and learning how to trad climb. 

Also interesting was how in the interviews after they discussed that comp slab had prepared them surprisingly well for the weird awkward tech granite cruxes on El Cap (i.e. the Changing Corners pitch).

hifnowrote:

The reason why you don’t see Olympians doing hard trad is because… wait for it… they were preparing for the Olympics! Why would they waste their time doing hard trad instead? I’m pretty sure that if they wanted to try hard trad, most of them would be doing so successfully within a few months. See the link I posted above, where some British ex-comp climbers (who weren’t Olympic level) freed the Nose within 6 months of retiring from comp climbing and learning how to trad climb. 

You, like jaren are arguing a hypothetical. I agree that if they stopped comp climbing, then some of them likely could climb 5.13+ on gear, maybe even within a few months. But you’re blatantly missing my point that there are few who have accomplished both due to them being different disciplines. The fact remains, that there aren’t any outside of Ondra doing both. Hypothetically, I could easily do the 7 summits based on my alpine achievements and technical abilities, but until I do it’s a moot point. 

Mike Law had a simple but elegant take. 

"I think there is a distinction between hand climbing and foot climbing. Gyms are hand climbing but rock is foot climbing, and foot climbing is so much harder than just hauling up on your arms. It's amazing what you can stand on when you can't imagine falling off [referring to trad climbing]. Foot moves don't have to be precise when you are strong, but it's essential to get them right for when you aren't.

...I don't understand how gym climbers can ever learn good footwork, but they do."

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

You, like jaren are arguing a hypothetical. I agree that if they stopped comp climbing, then some of them likely could climb 5.13+ on gear, maybe even within a few months. But you’re blatantly missing my point that there are few who have accomplished both due to them being different disciplines. The fact remains, that there aren’t any outside of Ondra doing both. Hypothetically, I could easily do the 7 summits based on my alpine achievements and technical abilities, but until I do it’s a moot point. 

This reads like: "yeah those kids can twirl around on plastic but can they climb a spicy 5.8 handcrack like me? See I'm still relevant!!! Clearly that is real climbing!!!!"

Like cool I guess? I'm sure if people cared about climbing way below their max on gear they would, but they can probably do that when they are weak and old (talking about 5.13 trad for high level comp climbers) 

Hard trad is basically bouldering while fiddling in gear. I find it more hilarious that this dude thinks that someone that boulders hard couldn't figure out >5.13 trad when at that point it is basically face climbing with gear. I think 5.12 pure crack climbing might actually be more difficult for someone of the modern comp climbing freaks to do off the couch but it would probably only take them a few days to start onsighting it tbh. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

You, like jaren are arguing a hypothetical. I agree that if they stopped comp climbing, then some of them likely could climb 5.13+ on gear, maybe even within a few months. But you’re blatantly missing my point that there are few who have accomplished both due to them being different disciplines. The fact remains, that there aren’t any outside of Ondra doing both. Hypothetically, I could easily do the 7 summits based on my alpine achievements and technical abilities, but until I do it’s a moot point. 

I think maybe your point is that the fact that no one is doing both hard trad and comp climbing simultaneously is a sign that one is not the optimal way to train for the other, because they are different disciplines. That I can agree with. I think I remember Ondra saying that he couldn’t focus on outdoor climbing while he was busy training for comp climbing, you basically have to choose to optimize one or the other. Being more of a fan of outdoor climbing, I’m pretty happy to have the Olympics over so that Ondra, Schubert, and Megos can go back to doing outdoor projects. I’d also like to see Janja and Tomoa Narasaki focus primarily on outdoor climbing and see how much they would crush.

Back to the OP, at the moderate levels (say V8 and below), I’ve noticed that how well indoor climbing translates to outdoor climbing depends on how much outdoor climbing you’ve done. For example, if you have only indoor climbed, when you transition outdoors, you would likely have to expect to lower your grade expectations significantly (maybe by 4 V grades) until you learn some outdoor technique. If you are already well versed in outdoor climbing, then the indoor climbing can translate well.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

Hard trad is basically bouldering while fiddling in gear. I find it more hilarious that this dude thinks that someone that boulders hard couldn't figure out >5.13 trad when at that point it is basically face climbing with gear. I think 5.12 pure crack climbing might actually be more difficult for someone of the modern comp climbing freaks to do off the couch but it would probably only take them a few days to start onsighting it tbh. 

I find it hilarious you somehow still are missing my point that these comp climbers rarely have climbed 5.13+ on gear. I haven’t once said they can’t, and if I did then I was mistaken.

hifno wrote:

I think maybe your point is that the fact that no one is doing both hard trad and comp climbing simultaneously is a sign that one is not the optimal way to train for the other, because they are different disciplines. That I can agree with. I think I remember Ondra saying that he couldn’t focus on outdoor climbing while he was busy training for comp climbing, you basically have to choose to optimize one or the other.

I’ve point out multiple times now that comp climbing and outdoor climbing should be considered different disciplines of climbing, just as trad and bouldering are. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I find it hilarious you somehow still are missing my point that these comp climbers rarely have climbed 5.13+ on gear. I haven’t once said they can’t, and if I did then I was mistaken.

I’ve point out multiple times now that comp climbing and outdoor climbing should be considered different disciplines of climbing, just as trad and bouldering are. 

Because trad climbing is for when you are weak and old. Bouldering is just more interesting.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

Because trad climbing is for when you are weak and old. Bouldering is just more interesting.

I mean I agree 100% but we are talking about comp climbing…

Connor Dobsonwrote:

Bouldering is just more interesting.

Um... for me, bouldering always induced a strong case of ADD - after the 6th go at a problem I've usually lost interest.

This thread is hilarious (even more than previous iterations of the same question). 

The reasons were eloquently and politely provided by the first answer in this thread. Gym climbing != rock climbing, skillsets overlap only partially. Gyms are soft. You most likely have bad technique, poor intuition and insufficient headgame.

The interesting question is why so many people seem to have completely skewed expectations when climbing outside. Gym climbing is obviously not the same as rock climbing. 

Around here, boulder problems in gyms are almost always graded using arbitrary color or numbering scales that are much wider than outside grades. Maybe this would prevent the constant  "I can climb the pink sloper V9 with bathang start in the gym, why can't I climb V2 outside" questions.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I find it hilarious you somehow still are missing my point that these comp climbers rarely have climbed 5.13+ on gear. I haven’t once said they can’t, and if I did then I was mistaken.

I’ve point out multiple times now that comp climbing and outdoor climbing should be considered different disciplines of climbing, just as trad and bouldering are. 

^ This. And even if they would, the reference grade is completely off. Due to talent and fitness, 5.13 is a casual onsight and often barely a warm up for many of these climbers. Even one of my 10kg+ overweight friends with a beer belly occasionally cranks out a 5.13 by sieging it (admittedly not on gear).

thought I'd give an update even though the conversation has completely shifted. After taking some of the advice you guys gave me I started climbing a lot of slabs in my gym, going outside more, and joining a climbing team for coaching while my schedule is clear. Since then I have TR an 11c and almost sent it (fell twice), and lead another 11c today and also almost sent that one as well (fell after the crux on easy terrain. still pissed about it) These climbs seemed untouchable a couple of weeks ago but are now within reach because of this forum. thanks everyone

Down climb on an autobelay and be precise  with your feet. Don’t kick the wall or make sudden movements 

Shea Ingallswrote:

thought I'd give an update even though the conversation has completely shifted. After taking some of the advice you guys gave me I started climbing a lot of slabs in my gym, going outside more, and joining a climbing team for coaching while my schedule is clear. Since then I have TR an 11c and almost sent it (fell twice), and lead another 11c today and also almost sent that one as well (fell after the crux on easy terrain. still pissed about it) These climbs seemed untouchable a couple of weeks ago but are now within reach because of this forum. thanks everyone

Hell yea man! Good shit….

fast work too haha!

You pick an 11c outside to work yet?

There should be no difference in physical difficulty overall, some gyms may set more problems on the easier side of the scale or have the difficulty compressed, but gyms shouldn’t drive grade inflation. I climb 5.13 outside and find 5.13 in a gym to be uninspiring or too hard to do in a set cycle. But I also boulder v8-10 in the gym and rarely send harder than v7 outdoors because I just don’t project outdoor boulders more than a single sesh. 

Nick Budkawrote:

There should be no difference in physical difficulty overall, some gyms may set more problems on the easier side of the scale or have the difficulty compressed, but gyms shouldn’t drive grade inflation. I climb 5.13 outside and find 5.13 in a gym to be uninspiring or too hard to do in a set cycle. But I also boulder v8-10 in the gym and rarely send harder than v7 outdoors because I just don’t project outdoor boulders more than a single sesh. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I think indoor 5.13 is harder than outdoor 5.13 because setters are masochists that hate rests and being able to clip fwiw 

Connor Dobsonwrote:

I think indoor 5.13 is harder than outdoor 5.13 because setters are masochists that hate tests and being able to clip fwiw 

The only reason any indoor climb should be harder is because it is only up for a finite period of time. Obviously this is not the case and grades are so subjective that the numbers are always going to be skewed when a small number of the community is responsible for grading.

Theoretically, every indoor route should be exactly the correct consensus grade as the moves and holds can be manipulated into nearly any position/combination.