An unpopular take on The Alpinist

I thought it was unethical the way the film made no mention that he is dead until the end.

I remember as I was watching it with friends back when it came out, I searched him up early on during the film, since I had hardly heard of him.

“Do I mention it, or do I shut up, lest it spoils the film?” 

Felt like real life hunger games, considering whether someone’s death is a “spoiler."

I spoke with a former film maker about it and they agreed. Documentaries, unlike biopics, should lay the facts as they are, rather than milking the tears of the viewer so as to have a lasting psychological effect for one dimensional narrative resolution. 

I’d say it’s especially true for someone who died recently, tragically, and is not famous enough for it to be commonplace knowledge. It's like they took the frivolity of a Reel Rock, and then added on his death at the end for dramatic effect. At best, it's immature and tasteless. At worst, it's malevolent game-making of a tragedy.

I love all the people who act as if they've never judged anyone ever, and yet they are on this thread judging posts they don't like.  No sense of irony detected..  

I can't wait for the next person to jump in on their high horse and start banging on about what is an appropriate question to ask.

Someone mentioned that they worked in ER and death is just death. No argument there.

Its about level of risks, chances of accidents, and explaining to kids the level of risk to take, what to watch out for and where.  Its about parents watching out for signs of addictive behaviour towards risk taking in young kids. Its about guidance etc.

Everyone dies. But not at the same rate, same age, or with the same frequency.  

ps. If you plan to reply with some variation of

a) "Who are you to judge" - no I am not here to judge.

b) "Life is risky, let kids decide what risks to take" - no I don't agree not to give advice.

c) "This is not the right forum to discuss what should be private" -  no I don't agree. There has been a lot of good discussion here which will be useful later in private.

Ywan Cwrote:

I love all the people who act as if they've never judged anyone ever, and yet they are on this thread judging posts they don't like.  No sense of irony detected..  

I can't wait for the next person to jump in on their high horse and start banging on about what is an appropriate question to ask.

Someone mentioned that they worked in ER and death is just death. No argument there.

Its about level of risks, chances of accidents, and explaining to kids the level of risk to take, what to watch out for and where.  Its about parents watching out for signs of addictive behaviour towards risk taking in young kids. Its about guidance etc.

Everyone dies. But not at the same rate, same age, or with the same frequency.  

ps. If you plan to reply with some variation of

a) "Who are you to judge" - no I am not here to judge.

b) "Life is risky, let kids decide what risks to take" - no I don't agree not to give advice.

c) "This is not the right forum to discuss what should be private" -  no I don't agree. There has been a lot of good discussion here which will be useful later in private.

To the question of how to discuss this kind of stuff with your kids, try to look at it from the perspective of a free soloist. Do they have a responsibility to YOUR kids to be safe? I would argue no, definitely not. That completely falls on you to guide them toward being a responsible adult, and then it's on them to live that way as they grow up -- or not, and live with the consequences. Or, think about all the other things that the 8 billion people living at this moment do. Your kids are going to inevitably come across some debatable behaviour and maybe think it's cool. Again, that's on you to have the discussion with your kids if you don't think it's cool for them to look up to that. MAL was living his 'purpose' (if you want to call it that) and doing what made sense to him, and his death (which I will reiterate was from an avalanche, NOT free soloing) is on him. I mean no offense but it kind of comes off as if you're trying to put the responsibility of parenting your kids onto others, and I don't think that's going to work out well.

He just made his account 2 days ago. It’s like Tradiban has found a way back in. 

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

I thought it was unethical the way the film made no mention that he is dead until the end.

Unusual for sure.

Still, wasn’t the filming mostly done when he died?  Budget already spent may have been the driver to simply finish it the way they did.

Edit: Sure, a warning could have been easily added to the beginning. Suspect not all feel the same on that

I'm highly confident this is the best climbing movie ever made.  Anyone complaining is a sorry wanna be sack of... my unpopular opinion 

Nick Niebuhrwrote:

To the question of how to discuss this kind of stuff with your kids, try to look at it from the perspective of a free soloist. Do they have a responsibility to YOUR kids to be safe? I would argue no, definitely not. That completely falls on you to guide them toward being a responsible adult, and then it's on them to live that way as they grow up -- or not, and live with the consequences. Or, think about all the other things that the 8 billion people living at this moment do. Your kids are going to inevitably come across some debatable behaviour and maybe think it's cool. Again, that's on you to have the discussion with your kids if you don't think it's cool for them to look up to that. MAL was living his 'purpose' (if you want to call it that) and doing what made sense to him, and his death (which I will reiterate was from an avalanche, NOT free soloing) is on him. I mean no offense but it kind of comes off as if you're trying to put the responsibility of parenting your kids onto others, and I don't think that's going to work out well.

Gotta admit I was not expecting anyone to think that I am trying to put responsibility on others. 

I came here for information and advice about how to talk about risk, about the film, about what MAL did, and how to frame a complex issue in my own private discussions with friends and family in private.  I have found some interesting answers and interesting explanations.

What I did not come here for is to start a discussion about what my own motivations are.

But now I am looking forward to what the next hot take on me will be!  Lol..

Seriously, its all good, even the weird criticisms are useful.  Im having a blast reading what some people in the climbing world think and how they think (or don't like to think) about assessing and discussing risks with others.  

For example, you seem to think the only appropriate place to discuss risks are in private. Thats fine. Not my opinion but you are entitled to yours.

Victor Creazziwrote:

I haven't read the whole ten pages, but has no one talked about his ADHD?  He expressed that high risk climbing got rid of his 'squirrel brain' . If his climbing gave him peace who are we to judge. Was he supposed to live  a life of pharmaceuticals?

Interesting point.  The only thing I would add is that his type of climbing also got rid of him, in addition to 'squirrel brain'.  So bringing this back to my agenda about giving advice to friends and family : My suggestion if you have ADHD is to find a way to get rid of squirrel brain in a slightly less risky manner.

Again, before the next genius says "dude, you could like easily die driving a car man!".  Yes, I get it. You could die of cancer or getting out of bed. The definition of risk is about dangers and probabilities. Perhaps stop being offended by a discussion on risk. 

Also again, before anyone takes offence:  You don't have to agree with me, my suggestion is not for others to agree with - everyone can have their own opinion, and the answer is:  no I'm not pushing for all of you to take responsibility for what I am advocating!

Oh man, I can't wait for the next response.  I get the sense that there is a certain type of climber that really doesn't like to discuss the subject of risk? Oh well.

I don't think anyone complaining has ever actually climbed a single pitch. 

phylp phylpwrote:

He just made his account 2 days ago. It’s like Tradiban has found a way back in. 

The groupthink folks will not be happy if so

where is traddy? 

Ywan Cwrote:

Interesting point.  The only thing I would add is that his type of climbing also got rid of him, in addition to 'squirrel brain'.  So bringing this back to my agenda about giving advice to friends and family : My suggestion if you have ADHD is to find a way to get rid of squirrel brain in a slightly less risky manner.

If possible / practical, right?

Parents who live with troubling ADHD (or troubling mental whatever) know what has been tried and what did not work. They have typicaly lived it for years. Same for appropriate professionals who have diagnosed and followed the attempts at treatment.

On the other hand, comments from uninvolved others akin to “there were choices but his parent just gave up”  … are packed with assumptions about available choices and degree of control over someone else. I reject those assumptions or at least request credentials.

We should also recognize the possibility that Marc-André might have arrived intact and whole after some years of extreme alpinism, in which case extreme alpinism would have been an effective “treatment” albeit risky.

Edit: I have tried to get a kid in similar trouble into some kind of counseling or for diagnoses. I was amazed at how many professionals state up front that they do not take teenagers as patients.

Bill Lawrywrote:

Unusual for sure.

Still, wasn’t the filming mostly done when he died?  Budget already spent may have been the driver to simply finish it the way they did.

Edit: Sure, a warning could have been easily added to the beginning. Suspect not all feel the same on that

They released the film in 2021, he died in 2018. That’s 3 years to add a simple single black screen frame with white letters at the start of the film with his name, with a birth and death date, “In loving memory, this is his story,” something like that. I could do it in 5 minutes.

Out of curiosity, I just watched the theatrical trailer too. They left it out as well. 

Just wanna add I have nothing against Marc-Andre and think the climbing he was doing is pretty inspiring. Him and Peter Croft are my inspirations for why I did a season in squamish.

I thought Marks climbing was super smooth. never looked sketchy at all. Avalanches don't give as shit how good you are... 

Alan, examples of dangerous conversation would be planning to hurt people, destroy property, etc not sure what you mean by "dangerous" in a banal conversation on an internet forum. Count me leery of somebody who considers conversation dangerous. I'm glad you summoned the immense courage to engage. ;) 

I've never heard of Tobin, so I don't have much of an opinion, but I'm going to buy his book when I get home. Thank you. Seems right up my alley. An AAC article describes him as "invariably cheerful" which certainly sounds like somebody with a deep understanding of Christian theology to me.

I started this thread almost 3 years ago, in reaction to my 10 year old daughter's question as we watched the movie: "Why doesn't he just wear a rope?" The question threw me for a loop. We wear seat belts. We don't run red lights for cheap thrills. We look both ways. Marc probably did all those things, so why did he go out of his way to create situations where he either had to be perfect or die? That's what she was asking me, why does he risk his life when he doesn't have to? It's one thing to risk your life for science or exploration or medicine, but why risk it just to climb random routes other people climb all the time, just with ropes. 

It felt wrong to tell my daughter he did it "because it was fun." (Does that send the wrong message? Obviously, who truly wants their kid soloing increasingly risky stuff)

It felt wrong to say "because he felt cool while doing it." (For some here, yes, it does feel cool to climb routes without ropes, knowing death is the consequence of a mistake or just bad luck)

It felt wrong to say "because other people thought he was cool, and he liked feeling cool." (Some here want others to know they solo, and to think they are cool because of it)

It felt wrong to say "because gear companies gave him free gear ONLY because he soloed and risked his life: without the risk of death, they would not give him free gear, so he risked his life for free gear instead of getting a (boring) job. 

That last thought is what really sparked the thread. Mental illness, ADHD, boredom, genetics, pleasure seeking, the sensation of mastering your emotions, whatever the reasons he soloed (or anyone does), those were organic parts of his brain - but then the gear companies and the free gear were external motivating factors, and as I thought about their role, I started this thread.

I'm glad to see the conversation continue, and to see all the different thoughts come up. I'm not here to condemn soloing, or even to understand it. Acceptable risk is a fluid concept that applies to all of life, not just climbing. Almost everyone here, including me, has chosen not to place a piece or to skip a bolt for no other reason than they felt good and free at the time and pausing to increase safety at that moment seemed like a drag. That's on the continuum with what Marc was doing, but it's not the same.  

He was doing it long before corporations started paying him.

And I hope you told your daughter you don’t understand why he risks his life that way when he doesn't have to.

At least I don’t recall what your answer was. My bad if I missed it.

Everyone gets to follow their own path to contentment. For some people, that path involves charging hard in remote places. For others, the path winds mindlessly through suburbia. I suspect people who judge the paths of others have not yet found contentment on their own path. 

In his own words:

Greatness... the ultimate goal we all try to achieve.  

I appreciate Marc, I never understand why until I started pushing myself.  Also the reason I started playing golf.  When you achieve that perfect moment for yourself, when everything hits how you envisioned it there is literally nothing better.  

Marc didn't chase that but lived it.  I cannot think of a better film that motivates me to push myself to accomplish what to me is impossible.  To me that's the true joy and beauty of climbing. We are all pushing our own limits and comforts.  I love seeing someone accomplish their first anything.  My ex wife is the only witness to my eagle on a par 4 but I'm grateful someone else got to experience that.  Marc is an absolute legend and if you understand the sport you can't help but be humbled and amazed. 

I hope when I pass it's because I was trying hard and giving it my all.  RIP Marc. 

Colden Darkwrote:

Everyone gets to follow their own path to contentment. For some people, that path involves charging hard in remote places. For others, the path winds mindlessly through suburbia……

I think this is the key to discerning either tragedy or worthiness…if any of us can attempt to pass such judgments.

 Anything done mindfully, was worth it.   Anything done mindlessly is the only “tragedy”, and only in so far as that is where you are most open to feeling regret.  

It appears from superficial assessments —the only kind available to any of us in this context— that Marc was operating mindfully.