Climbing grades indoor vs outdoor

Probably gym dependent, but I live in CO where the gyms are meant to be soft, and I climb a couple letter grades harder outside than in the gym (both onsight and RP). I think the "gyms flatter your ego" thing is not as prevalent as people think, at least in the roped climbing section (bouldering on the other hand seems way softer). Who knows though, maybe I'm just coping about being weak and bad at gym climbing. 

I imagine if you're climbing those grades indoors, you're already more than strong enough to climb 5.11 or 12 outside. If you can find something in a similar style anyway. You can definitely find outdoor routes that climb like gym routes if you go looking for them. Then its just a matter of getting used to route reading/stylistic differences/fear. Putting in some mileage will do that. Building the strength and resilience you already have is a big part of the picture. I think you're closer than you imagine.

Unpopular opinion here.

The gym can be hard. Harder than outside. It’s consistently steep and there are no rests built in.

A good gym 12a (for example), does not have a move harder than 12a and barely a move easier than 11b. It’s solid the whole way up.

Tons of routes outside that grade start at 5.5, have a brief section of 5.9, a sit down rest, a single 12a move over a roof, and a cruise to the anchor at 10b.

It’s not as hard. It just isn’t.

But some indoor climbers never develop the necessary skills to negotiate that single move so they cry foul. It’s not so much that the gym is soft it’s that they’ve trained an unrelated aspect of climbing.

Never sent within a number and a half indoors vs what I’ve done outdoors.

For me, grades have become all but useless.  For starters, there are routes that cater to and reward certain things, and there are routes that have the opposite effect.  What I mean is that for any given climber, they're going to have weaknesses in one of these areas:  Flexibility, small hold endurance, small hold strength, large muscle strength and endurance, technique (including footwork, route reading, etc.) True connoisseurs of climbing try to get great at all of the above, but mere mortals, which is the vast majority of us, will still have several of those weaknesses.  

As a result, some routes feel much harder, or easier than their stated grade.  So, in the end, it's subjective.  But wait, there are further confounding variables.

Difficulty grades, in addition to varying by climber because of the terrain, also vary by area.  There are areas of the US that were developed before the YDS went as high as it did.  Climbers are a finicky bunch- the old schoolers don't like grade inflation, and don't like to have their routes re-graded, even when majority consensus is the function that's doing so.  Understandable.  Because of this however, even in the same state, such as WV, you'll have some crags where 5.8 feels like the 5.8 one is familiar with, and other 5.8s feel like 5.10b.

And even further complicating things, the difficulty grading at one gym vs. another, not to mention the settings styles, can vary wildly as well.  One thing that annoys me though, and it probably shouldn't is the sentiment that "gyms are easier".  I mean, I generally agree with that, but when people say things like "no way that's V3" because usually they're able to climb "V3" with no problem- are they really climbing V3?  I had a conversation with a newer climber, who is very strong and works at the gym I go to.  "V3 inside is way easier than V3 inside".  Consider for a moment the utter inanity of that statement.  They're the SAME GRADE.  Why shouldn't they be the same difficulty?  Why should the grade have a different meaning inside than outside, considering it's the same designation and nomenclature?  Furthermore, if one wants to bellyache about grade inflation or sandbagging or anything else, the OUTDOOR standard should be the standard.  When the YDS started becoming widely used, the proliferation of gyms that use YDS for grading had not yet occurred.  When John Sherman more or less introduced the V scale, the same was true.  There weren't tons of gyms with V scale graded boulders in them.

So, why should there be any difference from a V3 inside vs. a V3 outside?  The answer is that there shouldn't be, but there must be.  Neon-colored holds jutting out from a flat, different colored surface that they're mounted on are easier to unlock beta for than boulder problems on rock.  This isn't true for all of them, really cryptic and devious setting can be accomplished with synthetic holds, but usually that's not the case, especially for problems of lower grades.  But the V scale, like the YDS scale has its inception in outdoor climbing, therefore the standard, relatively speaking for the difficulty of any route or problem using the YDS or V Scale should strive to replicate those grades.  Will that happen in most cases?  No, probably not.

What I've learned for me personally is to all but discard grades.  I know that high stepping, particularly using crimps as handholds while doing so, is probably going to shut me down.  So is hard dihedral climbing on nothing holds that requires lateral splits more or less on opposing surfaces.  These climbs feel incredibly hard to me because of my own limitations.  Likewise, I have pretty good upper body strength, and very good large hold endurance, so overhanging routes and problems that happen to have big holds, I do much better on and typically climb harder than my "average grade" on these types of climbs.  As a result, I've learned to appreciate the quality of setting and routes vs. getting hung up on what a posted grade is.  If a route or problem to me seems like it's a grade I should be able to climb and I can't, if it's not enjoyable for me, I just discard it and move on.  I don't get hung up on the fact that because of a more or less arbitrary number placed on a route or problem by someone that has different ability and a strengths and weaknesses than me, I *should* be able to climb it.  I simply don't care if the movement or process is not enjoyable.  Likewise, if the movement on something is really enjoyable and the route or problem is aesthetic, even if it's out of my skill or strength ability, I'll likely attack it over and over and over.  And so difficulty grades for me only pose a loose guideline of whether or not I'll attempt it, and whether or not I'll keep attempting it after the initial try.  I've found that this is a much more conducive way to make progress AND have fun, rather than getting hung up on numbers and whether gym grades and outdoor grades are the same and whether a route or problem is soft or sandbagged.  How GOOD is it?  That's my major factor and motivator.  YMMV.

Sean Andelwrote:

Probably gym dependent, but I live in CO where the gyms are meant to be soft, and I climb a couple letter grades harder outside than in the gym (both onsight and RP). I think the "gyms flatter your ego" thing is not as prevalent as people think, at least in the roped climbing section (bouldering on the other hand seems way softer). Who knows though, maybe I'm just coping about being weak and bad at gym climbing. 

I imagine if you're climbing those grades indoors, you're already more than strong enough to climb 5.11 or 12 outside. If you can find something in a similar style anyway. You can definitely find outdoor routes that climb like gym routes if you go looking for them. Then its just a matter of getting used to route reading/stylistic differences/fear. Putting in some mileage will do that. Building the strength and resilience you already have is a big part of the picture. I think you're closer than you imagine.

Where does everyone keep getting this narrative? Lmao 

Commercial gyms may grade soft to encourage people to keep climbing, but there are many gyms throughout Colorado that grade pretty accurately or even sandbag the grades a good deal. I think a bigger issue is a lot of people (especially the Front Rangers) don’t transition well to outdoor styles of climbing and the grades, consequently, feel much harder. This is more obvious in Colorado since most the popular areas with easier grades (5.12 and below) are more verty, whereas the gym routes the Boulder Bros are climbing are steeper and more gymnastic.

I always find it hilarious that people find grades at the place they climb 2-4 days a week (the gym) to feel easier than the place they climb once a week, at best (outside). Of course the place you hardly ever climb at is going to feel harder. 

The gym I climb at is so internally inconsistent in grading that there is no hope of translating to outdoor grades.

rgoldwrote:

The gym I climb at is so internally inconsistent in grading that there is no hope of translating to outdoor grades.

Huuurdat

indoor vs out.  old or new.  overhung or slab.  The problem is 2 fold:

1. They require quite different abilities yet you are trying to use the same scale to measure them.  As has been previously mentioned climbing plastic is  a fundamentally different sport and should have its own difficulty measurement scale.  Just like bouldering.  Although - as previously mentioned - people would immediately try and translate - just like bouldering.

2. You are assuming that a seeming very PRECISE number (grade) is ACCURATE.  There is no objective way to measure difficulty - its all subjective.

PS - Who cares?

You are incorrect. The grade of any given route--indoors and out, is precisely accurate, determined by the 'official standard average climber' who is kept in a bell jar at sea level for that purpose. The grades are perfect, it is the climbers who are not.

Eric Engbergwrote:

indoor vs out.  old or new.  overhung or slab.  The problem is 2 fold:

1. They require quite different abilities yet you are trying to use the same scale to measure them.  As has been previously mentioned climbing plastic is  a fundamentally different sport and should have its own difficulty measurement scale.  Just like bouldering.  Although - as previously mentioned - people would immediately try and translate - just like bouldering.

2. You are assuming that a seeming very PRECISE number (grade) is ACCURATE.  There is no objective way to measure difficulty - its all subjective.

PS - Who cares?

Good point bro. The more I climb, the more I realize that we do need a scale for overhung, a scale for slab, a scale for vert, a scale for routes developed between 1980-1990, a scale for 1990-2000 routes, and routes developed after 2010….its only logical.

People often forget how grading has evolved. Bouldering. For example, was supposed to progress exponentially. A V2 was supposed to be twice as hard as V1…now we have V17 boulders, but the hardest individual move is said to only be V14. Riddle me that.

Alan Rubinwrote:

You are incorrect. The grade of any given route--indoors and out, is precisely accurate, determined by the 'official standard average climber' who is kept in a bell jar at sea level for that purpose.

Climate (temperature and humidity) controlled in that bell jar?  I'd rather invest in a wine cellar.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

People often forget how grading has evolved. Bouldering. For example, was supposed to progress exponentially. A V2 was supposed to be twice as hard as V1…now we have V17 boulders, but the hardest individual move is said to only be V14. Riddle me that.

Where did you hear that?  One of the very first places I climbed at was Hueco in 1990, the birthplace of the then very new V scale. The B scale was still widely used then, and I never heard that the V scale was supposed to be exponential, not even from the Hueco bouldering OGs. 

Perhaps you are confusing it with the B scale where B1 was at the roped climbing limit but repeated, B2 was unrepeated and hard, and B3 was a yet unsent problem.  

Frank Steinwrote:

Where did you hear that?  One of the very first places I climbed at was Hueco in 1990, the birthplace of the then very new V scale. The B scale was still widely used then, and I never heard that the V scale was supposed to be exponential, not even from the Hueco bouldering OGs. 

Perhaps you are confusing it with the B scale where B1 was at the roped climbing limit but repeated, B2 was unrepeated and hard, and B3 was a yet unsent problem.  

Even if I am, that just exacerbates my point about grades changing and evolving. It also doesn’t address the fact that we have V17’s, yet the strongest climbers have been on record saying that they feel the hardest individual move they have ever done is V14…whatever happened to boulders being based on the single hardest move(s)

As a very long term outdoor climber recently trying indoor climbing, I think indoor routes are rated almost 2 number grades harder than outdoor grades.  I.e.  5.6 outdoor is 5.8 indoor etcetera.  

It's sure good for the ego.  

At my gym, one, maybe two of the setters have climbed outside - on a rope, anyway - the climbs are plastic-style boulder problems stacked end to end, the grades are inconsistent, and compared to the local crags they are noticeably undergraded.  But you can find gyms/outside areas where this isn't so pronounced. Decide what you want to focus on. Don't worry about it. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

whatever happened to boulders being based on the single hardest move(s)

This was never the case, not sure why people keep thinking this.

Different gyms and different outdoor climbing areas may be rated hard or soft. 

Some types of climbs are easier or harder for different people/body types.

Your experience on a type of climb plays a big factor on how hard if feels for you. I've seen 5.12 gym climbers flail on a 5.6 chimney or a 5.8 crack simply because they've never done it and don't know the technique. I've seen gym/sport climbers freaked out be easy slab. While an old school outdoor climber may struggle on a 5.10 sport because they are heavier and not as fit as a young gym climber.

So IMO ratings are best used to differentiate between similar climbs. i.e. if you're at a crag and one 5.11 feels like a good challenge for you, then another 5.11 there will likely also be good for you. It's hard to know what things will be somewhere until you climb something. That's a big part of why people say when you go to a new area start several number grades under your usual level to get used to the rock.

I’m a lifelong outdoor climber, with some hard grades in my past and am making peace with how badly I suck now.

I spent more time bouldering indoors this year than I’ve spent bouldering indoors or out in the last 30 years combined.

I’ve noticed that route setters really don’t know what to do with a slab. I find myself flashing 2 of the gyms proprietary grades harder than the rest of the problems. It’s nearly the same for crimping. It’s not particularly difficult to move from one small hold to the next, especially at the feeble level I can pull off the ground.

Where the gym feels extremely challenging is on long moves, slopers, dynamic moves, and moves requiring that my balance point be outside of the center of my body.

At 45 I’m learning an entirely different set of skills.

I suppose I could cherry pick the routes that the setters have way less experience with than me, and call it all soft. Or if I went to a gym where the setting was more 80’s.

The grades are meaningless. Seeing improvements in myself is the goal.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

At 45 I’m learning an entirely different set of skills.

...

The grades are meaningless. Seeing improvements in myself is the goal.

The unfortunate thing is w/ all the training fad, if something can't be easily quantifiable, it is basically deemed useless.

The way the original post is worded, one could interpret that the grade itself is what gives the poster the most satisfaction. Nothing wrong with that is that is true for you, but I know for myself, just climbing outside always leaves me feeling more blissful than climbing in the gym. Doing a route thats much longer than 50 feet gives me lots of endorphins that gym routes can’t provide. Place gear, especially tricky small gear , fills me with joy. Obviously you can’t get that from the gym. Doing runouts at a grade where I’m confident is tremendous fun. Can’t get that in the gym. And the variety of movement!  50x better than the gym when you travel to different places to climb. I’ve been to gyms all over the country. Some have higher and steeper walls, but there’s a sameness to the movement that’s universal.

 I can onsite much harder numbers at the gym than outside as well, our local gym is pretty soft. But I ask the original poster, what is giving you joy?  Climbing outside no matter what the grade has the potential to give you so much more. Find the bliss. 

rebootwrote:

The unfortunate thing is w/ all the training fad, if something can't be easily quantifiable, it is basically deemed useless.

Must input data. Cannot compute qualitative metrics! Overheating! Beep boop beeep *magic smoke*