When do you decide to "say something" to another party/person?

Dow Williamswrote:

Looks like this thread has gone off on some far off tangent(s).  But to the OP.  I am an old school hippie libertarian type, so it sort of goes without saying that the best human trait as valued by me is one of live and let live.  Staying out of other folks business is a real challenge for the righteous (whether we are discussing abortion or climbing, whatever the subject).  I realize that skill in modern American society might have been lost on younger generations.  However, it is always refreshing to still find folks who really don't give a fuck what someone else considers appropriate and even safe, for themselves.  If you are in eminent danger from a potential mistake made by another, I understand, but if not, take a few deep breaths and leave others alone.  When this can be achieved within some distance, at least, of a trained Buddhist level.....you will be rewarded with enlightenment and self awareness that will allow you to be one happy camper.  Not to mention one with more cred and net influence than the narcissistic option.  Folks deserve to learn by their own methodology without the preaching and meddling of busy bodies.  

Do you become enlightened when they kick huge rocks on your head or maybe even your partners head? Asking for a friend. 

Imminent danger from patently bad practice and they don't seem to be aware of it. 

I spoke up when someone was about to lower their partner to the ground off of a grigri clipped to the anchor without a redirected brake strand. I was waiting at the belay station for them so I could rap, and knew they were new from chit chatting earlier. Gave them time to figure shit out on their own, watching as they set it all up. When I realized they didn't know to redirect, that seemed a great time to impart wisdom.

I consider myself very libertarian. Which is why I didn't go file a police report and request that the government ban rock climbing. I also let the leader make those series of mistakes and didn't even worry much about it. It's their adventure and their risk and their own danger would be very apparent.
However, the follower was in more danger and after I got a visual on the party and some quick words back and forth to settle my own mind, it was made it very apparent that the follower was not aware and way in over their head, and was receptive to assistance but confused. Backed up by their obvious physical difficulty even getting started removing the off-route pieces. No lessons would have been learned by the follower getting mangled.
The morning after my post a great friend of mine was killed in a horrible work accident. Could someone have said something to him to stop him? I have no idea, and I'll likely never know, but I do think about that.

"When do you decide to "say something" to another party/person?"

When what they're doing is imminently going to cause serious injury or death, and when I can't pack my shit up fast enough to get the hell out of there before that event occurs.

Similar to others, I'll speak up if there is imminent danger of serious injury, and will occasionally talk to newer climbers who are struggling if they seem receptive.

Saw a pair once where the belayer was using a gri-gri by 1. pulling the lever all the way back with her left hand and 2. feeding out slack from the climber side of the rope with her right hand. I've seen plenty of creative ways to use a gri-gri and would usually not interfere, but this time was bad enough I stepped in a for a quick belay lesson. Not sure it stuck, but the climber noticed that something was going on, and hopefully they had a productive discussion later.

Also saw someone go up a crack climb (moved very confidently, clearly not a newbie) and call "off belay" at the top with only a handjam for an anchor. He proceeded to set up a rappel one-handed. I asked the belayer if he was aware that his climber wasn't clipped into anything, and he just shrugged. Climber made it down fine, but not fun to watch.

Michelle Jwrote:

Also saw someone go up a crack climb (moved very confidently, clearly not a newbie) and call "off belay" at the top with only a handjam for an anchor. He proceeded to set up a rappel one-handed. I asked the belayer if he was aware that his climber wasn't clipped into anything, and he just shrugged. Climber made it down fine, but not fun to watch.

And this is why I've been so gun-shy to find a partner on MP.

the boulderer response to this question is to just throw another pad down

Pete Nelsonwrote:

Interesting. Does this libertarian philosophy extend to letting them bleed out at the base of the climb after they've taken the fall 'cause, how else are they going to learn from their experience? Genuinely curious...

I personally try to leave so I don’t face that mortal dilemma. Better to let them bleed out alone and I don’t know about it…

Only half kidding

Luke Lalorwrote:

I personally try to leave so I don’t face that mortal dilemma. Better to let them bleed out alone and I don’t know about it…

Only half kidding

pun intended? or was that a Freudian slip?

Luke Lalorwrote:

I personally try to leave so I don’t face that mortal dilemma. Better to let them bleed out alone and I don’t know about it…

Only half kidding

wait, gotta loot the body

I'll share something I'm sure I have shared before from early in my trad climbing "career."

I was on Birdland with a gf. We were finishing up and about to start rapping down with single 70m. I noticed climbers to the right on something harder, Spectrum.

For us, first rap (from the top of the 5th to the top of the 4th pitch) the rope pulled OK, but got stuck below and right of the anchor enough for me to need to do a short rap down to unstick it, then ascend back up to the anchor before we could even get the rope centered in the rings to be able to continue rapping. Around this point I noticed the climbers were traversing over towards Birdland. Fairly horizontal. No comment on if they had enough protection in for the follower, it was headlamps at this point so difficult to see.

Now its been years, so I can't remember all the details perfectly, I can't remember if we did another rap before what happens next or not... but we ended up rapping down to the ledge at the top of the 2nd pitch.
https://mountainproject.com/assets/photos/climb/114198414_large_1522203467.jpg
I think as I'm rapping down to the 2nd pitch ledge... they toss me the end of their rope and ask me to loop it around our rap lines and loosely tie it so that when we get down to the ledge and off rap, they can pull the strands over and have some more semblance of safety for the traverse they are trying to do to get to Birdland to bail on the nice bolted rap anchors, where apparently where they were on Spectrum they would need to leave gear.

I being the young and new trad leader assume that if they were on some 5.11 they must know their shit and while it seems very weird to me, I just go with it.

I figured they would still lead over and our rap line would just be extra insurance against falling... but instead they both get set up to rap on it. Simulrap... Guess what happens next.

They are facing a pretty large swing potential immediately. Being on simul, of course, someone stands up, the other suddenly drops a little, looses their footing that was bracing them against the swing and proceeds to barrel roll swing across the wall getting banged up along the way.

They both get down to the ledge and chill a bit. The one who took the swing seems OK at first. I think we combine ropes and rap to the ground. They go first. Then the adrenaline wears off when the one who swung is on the ground and they get loopy and child like. I know shit all about first aid or rescue. No cell service. I leave my pack and partner at the base and jog out to the parking lot to call 911. They send chopper, fire, ambulance. I meet with them and explain what happened. They tell me I'm good to hike back to get my stuff, so I do.

I jog / hike back to get my pack and partner. The other couple is hiking out and the one who fell is doing better, chatting with someone who got dropped off by the chopper who is evaluating her and trying to convince her to take the ride and get checked out at an ER.

This was a thanksgiving. My partner and I had Wendys some time after midnight when all was said and done.

Lesson:
Even if someone is much more experienced than you... they can still make very obvious and stupid mistakes. If shit doesn't look right to you. Say something. Don't just blindly trust that because they climb harder than you they know what they are doing and will mitigate potential hazards.

After that I took WFR and climbing self-rescue classes... and eventually went on to a bit of guiding and just all around being an even more obnoxious geek for climbing technical subjects.