Public comment on wilderness area fixed hardware

Blah blah blah. I'm a rock climber! I know more about wilderness than anyone. The founding fathers were definitely concerned about preserving people's right to conveniently recreate. 

I wonder what constitutes fixed anchor exactly?  Bolts I suppose are a clear case.  What about fixed pins?  What about that stuck nut you intended to remove but couldn't so you left it?  Slings are removable so a pile of nasty rainbow-colored tat, that's ok right? 

What about removable bolts?  Requires drilling a hole, but nothing is left behind.

I'm sure all this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything.

John RBwrote:

I wonder what constitutes fixed anchor exactly?  Bolts I suppose are a clear case.  What about fixed pins?  What about that stuck nut you intended to remove but couldn't so you left it?  Slings are removable so a pile of nasty rainbow-colored tat, that's ok right? 

What about removable bolts?  Requires drilling a hole, but nothing is left behind.

I'm sure all this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything.

Armando Menocal, one of the founders of the AF, came up with the phrase, maybe 40 years ago. Reason? Back then FA climbers were running out of naturally protected rock. So placing pitons and leaving them as protection was pretty standard. The phrase "sport climbing" was not yet invented. It was the wild west. "Fixed Anchor" was an attempt to formalize both bolts and pitons as protection intended to be left behind by the person who placed them and left alone by everyone else, ie as a "fixed" part of the route.

Last time I talked to Armando, couple years ago, he felt that the phrase had outlived its usefulness and should be retired. Because at this point there's very few protection pitons any more, it's redundant.  

The proposed management guidelines as drafted cover anything left behind, even if left during an emergency bail: bolts, pitons, clean trad gear, slings or cords tied around things, ice screws, pickets, etc. If this seems ridiculous to you, well, I hope you filed a comment saying so.

James -wrote:

The proposed management guidelines as drafted cover anything left behind, even if left during an emergency bail: bolts, pitons, clean trad gear, slings or cords tied around things, ice screws, pickets, etc. If this seems ridiculous to you, well, I hope you filed a comment saying so.

Not so fast. Forest Service Proposal, Page 14, section 4:. "Placement of new fixed anchors and fixed equipment in wilderness is allowed without prior authorization supported by a Minimum Requirements Analysis to respond to an ... emergency involving public health or safety or other type of emergency such as a forest fire or other natural disaster."

That clause carves out an exception for officially sanctioned rescue teams, not private climbers making prudent decisions.

James -wrote:

That clause carves out an exception for officially sanctioned rescue teams, not private climbers making prudent decisions.

Whether a law or legal or not, how exactly would they impose a fine/penalty on someone for saving their life or the life of someone else?

What would their argument be? "Hey so you saved yourself and 2 others from certain death and thousands of government dollars in recovery efforts, pain and suffering of loved ones.... However you left behind a piece of metal that anyone can go back and get later.... so we feel you are in the wrong."

When it comes to the life or death situations (that hopefully no one has to go thru) all these rules have to go out the window no?

https://youtu.be/IMGpY6gPsSo?si=5KVKJJFGBwUZ8md_

Always good to see mainstream medias take on “bolted on climbing holds”  :/ 

Kephas Petroswrote:

What would their argument be? "Hey so you saved yourself and 2 others from certain death and thousands of government dollars in recovery efforts, pain and suffering of loved ones.... However you left behind a piece of metal that anyone can go back and get later.... so we feel you are in the wrong."

Maybe you left a bunch of gear, and the Forest Service or whoever the land managers are kept asking you to pretty please remove it, and you kinda just ghost them. They'll eventually get pissed at you and fine you for leaving your shit. "anyone can go back and get later.." -- but it's still YOUR responsibility you know?

Somewhat related, there was a pair of Youtubers (I KNOW, I know) that had a medical emergency last year trying to do the Rim to Rim in the Grand Canyon in April (again I KNOW). Thankfully, the person experiencing the emergency was extracted out safely, and the people who weren't, kept on going out albeit with kind of a screwed up timeline. They camped in a parking lot and when the rangers saw this, told them they gotta move outside the Park as where they camped wasn't permitted -- literally not on their permit. They were given slack (well: twice) because the same rangers knew about the medical emergency, extraction. They moved, but still inside the Park, and that caused some litigation, because (well my take) the patience of the Park Rangers was met and exceeded. I've watched too many videos from these guys on how they were done so dirty, but I can side with the rangers having to deal with so many dumb dumbs on a daily basis that exceptional cases need to be dealt with a little more directly.  

Eric Mwrote:

I think you misunderstand the Declaration of Independence.  That was a bunch of colonists telling Britain: "fuck off we are going to make our own laws".  You are forgetting the really important next step, that those colonists did just what they said they would.  They went off and made their own laws, which eventually included laws restricting your right to stick bolts on things.  It's all a balancing act.  Your right to install bolts, someone else's right to enjoy unmodified wilderness.  The current debate is about where the fulcrum goes.

Clip'em or skip'em Bro. 

UPDATE December 18, 2024: The NPS has discontinued the development of this proposed guidance. Park leaders will continue to manage climbing activities in wilderness on a park-by-park basis consistent with applicable law and policy, including the Wilderness Act.

https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1207/nps-usfs-proposed-climbing-guidance-public-input.htm 

Access Fund:

https://www.accessfund.org/latest-news/breaking-news-national-park-service-withdraws-proposal-to-prohibit-fixed-anchor 

Amen! This is a huge deal.  Thank you climbing advocates for all you do. 

James -wrote:

https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1207/nps-usfs-proposed-climbing-guidance-public-input.htm 

Access Fund:

https://www.accessfund.org/latest-news/breaking-news-national-park-service-withdraws-proposal-to-prohibit-fixed-anchor 

Wow! Great news. The biggest thanks to all those that put in the hard work to make this happen. 

The battle might have been won, but the war isn’t over. The judgement on where fixed anchors are acceptable is up to the whim of individual superintendents, which varies widely and is subject to lots of bias. In many ways, it might have been better to see this issue escalate to the point where fixed anchors received clear definition as acceptable use of wilderness, to get extremist groups like Wilderness Watch completely shut down. As it stands, sounds like the door is still wide open to their bullshit tactics.

Access Fund Executive Director Heather Thorne.: “What happens next, though, is up to us as climbers. We must exercise restraint, humility and respect as we climb in these amazing Wilderness areas to ensure that they remain accessible for generations to come.”

 Ain’t holding my breath on that one. This issue boiled up because climbers clearly haven’t shown the ability to do this reasonably. This issue ain’t dead yet.

apogeewrote:
Access Fund Executive Director Heather Thorne.: “What happens next, though, is up to us as climbers. We must exercise restraint, humility and respect as we climb in these amazing Wilderness areas to ensure that they remain accessible for generations to come.”

lolz, good luck with that in this day and age of climbers.

James -wrote:

Access Fund:

https://www.accessfund.org/latest-news/breaking-news-national-park-service-withdraws-proposal-to-prohibit-fixed-anchor 

"...more than 12,000 people submitted comments to the two agencies."

8 million "climbers" & 12k submitted comments? I'm 1 of the 12k but geez, I'm surprised they changed course considering only 0.15% of us cared enough to say something. 

Jeremy Lwrote:

"...more than 12,000 people submitted comments to the two agencies."

8 million "climbers" & 12k submitted comments? I'm 1 of the 12k but geez, I'm surprised they changed course considering only 0.15% of us cared enough to say something. 

Claiming that 8 million "climbers" in this country know or care enough about this issue to write in is ridiculous. Overestimating by about 7.9 million.

Dave Meyerwrote:

Claiming that 8 million "climbers" in this country know or care enough about this issue to write in is ridiculous. Overestimating by about 7.9 million.

When is the last time you toured around gyms in big cities on a tuesday night? Or been to a popular sport/bouldering area outside on a sunny weekend/holiday day?

John Clarkwrote:

When is the last time you toured around gyms in big cities on a tuesday night? Or been to a popular sport/bouldering area outside on a sunny weekend/holiday day?

All the time. How many of those people want to hike over a mile to get into wilderness? People say they care but the vast majority of climbers are not willing to put in the work (which is a good thing). And no, front country Yosemite definitely shouldn't be considered wilderness. 

Dave Meyerwrote:

All the time. How many of those people want to hike over a mile to get into wilderness? People say they care but the vast majority of climbers are not willing to put in the work (which is a good thing). And no, front country Yosemite definitely shouldn't be considered wilderness. 

...and yet it is...

one of the many points i made in my nps comment was the absolute absurdity of rebolting an area like the bunny slopes in tuolumne with a hand drill, while being able to sing along to the music blaring from the harleys cruising by below...