ATC Slippage Catch

I outweigh my partner by around 85lbs (115 vs 200). Because of the large weight difference, I sometimes have difficulty giving a soft catch. I've heard references of the hidden art of letting the atc "slip" a bit as the climber falls to provide a very soft, very un-swingingy catch. I've seen some references to this method- one is the Hard Is Easy video that talks about it and the other is a random German video that references it as well. I can provide those videos if anyone is interested. 

Does anyone here catch like this, slippage style? Any pointers on how to do this?

 Does anyone here have experiences belaying with a large weight difference. I've read multiple other threads (particularly the one with the Dad named Rocky) who belays his child with a similar weight difference but his solution was just to run at the wall from 12ft away, which seems bad. 

Thanks

Jonah Swrote:

I outweigh my partner by around 85lbs (115 vs 200). Because of the large weight difference, I sometimes have difficulty giving a soft catch. I've heard references of the hidden art of letting the atc "slip" a bit as the climber falls to provide a very soft, very un-swingingy catch. I've seen some references to this method- one is the Hard Is Easy video that talks about it and the other is a random German video that references it as well. I can provide those videos if anyone is interested. 

Does anyone here catch like this, slippage style? Any pointers on how to do this?

 Does anyone here have experiences belaying with a large weight difference. I've read multiple other threads (particularly the one with the Dad named Rocky) who belays his child with a similar weight difference but his solution was just to run at the wall from 12ft away, which seems bad. 

Thanks

Just step forward as they fall, ala “Rocky”. With good technique it works well.

It honestly doesn't work that well. You can watch this video to see (go to much heavier belayer) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nMM-6WGAOlw&t=1229s&pp=ygUXSGFyZCBpcyBlYXN5IHNvZnQgY2F0Y2g%3D

Perhaps it would work better if I was 12 ft away from the wall, but often times this isn't possible or practical. Regardless, I'm still interested in tips about the atc slippage method. 

Tips on slippage: Don't.

I've given soft catches to people probably 100lbs lighter than myself without it.  The trick is to keep a tiny bit of slack between the leading hand above the device and the device itself to help time your step.

It just introduces new problems to solve one that's simply fixed by practice.

My go-to for belaying significantly lighter person on steep terrain: pop a squat: low, but not ass-to-heels relaxed. If a really soft catch is warranted, I can jump--ideally the instant I feel the rope come taut. Even without a jump, the tension in my legs naturally assists the fall in lifting me. If climber goes for a fast overhead clip, I can pay out an extra couple of feet by standing up while feeding slack. For climber who's my size, moving fast, and is committed to sending or falling, I'll do it too. I'd rather take a big, clean fall than get hung up on a clip.

I don't squat when climber is anywhere near a potential groundfall. I also don't do it when my climber is in hangdog mode, as a 'take' takes more time and energy, and they're gonna be salty if they fall and can't get back on the wall. Tiny leader who's pushing their limit and liable to either fall or yell "take" at any minute is a challenge, for sure. Obviously, there's no reason to squat or jump when climber is on less-than-vertical terrain.

Can't vouch for the slippage method, but an ATC naturally allows more slippage than everyone's favorite shortroping device (which Petzl used to caution against using for trad for this very reason). A low-impact-force rope might also help you out a bit. Beal Zenith is great for this, as is BD's 9.4 fuzz-machine.

Jonah Swrote:

It honestly doesn't work that well. You can watch this video to see (go to much heavier belayer) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nMM-6WGAOlw&t=1229s&pp=ygUXSGFyZCBpcyBlYXN5IHNvZnQgY2F0Y2g%3D

Perhaps it would work better if I was 12 ft away from the wall, but often times this isn't possible or practical. Regardless, I'm still interested in tips about the atc slippage method. 

Then just listen to the other gentleman in the thread please. ATC “slippage” is not a thing and potentially dangerous.

"Almost drop me on purpose"  

I don’t think hard is easy quite understands how to soft catch with a tube device. It’s doable if you train it, and you really want a reverso type device with greater braking power than the old atc. Hard to explain over the internet, but here goes. In the simplest form, I just keep my brake hand below my hip and keep the dead rope taut. When the fall comes, I let the brake hand follow up towards the device. With a lighter person, I do the same but in stead of keeping the dead rope taut, I let it make a small bight. If I anticipate a dangerous swing, I keep the dead rope taut, and as the fall comes, I let rope slide through the hand up to a couple of meters until I grasp it firmly and stop the fall as my hand goes up towards the device. Once you master it, it’s possible even if the climber is a bit heavier than the belayer, and even without belay gloves. 

Stefan Jacobsenwrote:

I don’t think hard is easy quite understands how to soft catch with a tube device. It’s doable if you train it, and you really want a reverso type device with greater braking power than the old atc. Hard to explain over the internet, but here goes. In the simplest form, I just keep my brake hand below my hip and keep the dead rope taut. When the fall comes, I let the brake hand follow up towards the device. With a lighter person, I do the same but in stead of keeping the dead rope taut, I let it make a small bight. If I anticipate a dangerous swing, I keep the dead rope taut, and as the fall comes, I let rope slide through the hand up to a couple of meters until I grasp it firmly and stop the fall as my hand goes up towards the device. Once you master it, it’s possible even if the climber is a bit heavier than the belayer, and even without belay gloves. 

I see, thanks! Is it similar to this style here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1DkxEIavc timestamp is 1:50. It sounds like your combining the "sensor" hand method with the tube catch. 

Jonah, I'm curious if your partner has complained about your catches?  Nothing wrong with trying to learn more and add to your toolbox, but maybe there even isn't a real problem to fix.

Jonah Swrote:

I see, thanks! Is it similar to this style here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1DkxEIavc timestamp is 1:50. It sounds like your combining the "sensor" hand method with the tube catch. 

That’s exactly what I mean. 

Arthur Wwrote:

Jonah, I'm curious if your partner has complained about your catches?  Nothing wrong with trying to learn more and add to your toolbox, but maybe there even isn't a real problem to fix.

Not too much complaining (although when we did fall practice there were some harder shorter falls- the bigger ones were fine), but they definitely aren't given as light as a catch as with other people closer to their weight, unless I time it absolutely perfectly and jump massively. I've been experimenting with different methods, but haven't found one that I feel comfortable about 100% of the time. Whereas, if I'm climbing with someone who's 180, 160, it isn't really any issue- all the standard stuff applies, I just "jump". It makes me extra worried about multi pitch climbing as well- we were just back from a trip to EPC and there's plenty of hanging belays there were you just can't really jump or be dynamic at all. The ATC catch seems kind of perfect if done correctly (and life threatening when done incorrectly, which is probably why this thread is getting a decent amount of negative attention, which I'm sympathetic to).  

"let rope slide through the hand"  /   "let the brake hand follow up towards the device"

I'm so glad the GriGri exists, holy shit!

Jonah Swrote:

I've heard references of the hidden art of letting the atc "slip" a bit as the climber falls to provide a very soft, very un-swingingy catch.

Feel free to correct me, but the swinging is the result of lateral momentum, not the vertical stopping distance. If your climber is swinging too much they may be pushing themselves away from the wall and it isn’t fixed with belay technique. Anyone with more physics than me want to fact check this?

Leif Mahoneywrote:

Feel free to correct me, but the swinging is the result of lateral momentum, not the vertical stopping distance. If your climber is swinging too much they may be pushing themselves away from the wall and it isn’t fixed with belay technique. Anyone with more physics than me want to fact check this?

I'm not a physicist, but I've fallen a lot. If you're experimentally-inclined, try this in a safe setting (i.e. no big nasty arete to the side):

1) Clip into a draw high off the deck. traverse laterally 5 or 6 feet such that rope runs horizontally from draw to your harness. Demand a take from your belayer and let go. You'll swing really hard.

2) Now, to simulate the swing with soft catch, have belayer lower you 10 feet from the same draw. Traverse laterally the same distance as in 1. Demand a take and let go. You'll swing, but not nearly as dramatically.

See attached diagram for yet another reason one might want a soft catch when climbing to side of pro. Yes, ideally, we don't climb away from bolt line, but the nature of real rock often requires this.

Leif Mahoneywrote:

Feel free to correct me, but the swinging is the result of lateral momentum, not the vertical stopping distance. If your climber is swinging too much they may be pushing themselves away from the wall and it isn’t fixed with belay technique. Anyone with more physics than me want to fact check this?

The lateral momentum towards the rock is caused by the pull of the rope towards the top carabiner.

If the rope is taught as you fall past that carabiner the vector is maximally horizontal.   If the rope is slack for most of the fall then the vector is minimally horizontal.

For the little people I use my guide hand as an extension spring to soften the catch as well as the usual jump.  The brake hand does its job as normal. This is pretty standard practice for me even with the big bois but probably not as effective for them. I do like to think it reduces the load on gear placements if that’s a concern. YMMV.