What is the purpose of cams in passive placements.

Marc801 Cwrote:

Read the post immediately below your comment ^^^. 

Just for once ya think you can suspend your innate condition to be an argumentative jerk.

You are the one who is arguing. Just take my word for it. 

Passive cam placements are never great and hardly mandatory. There is always a better piece or a better placement.

It’s just a gimmick that makes the gumbys think they bought the “best” cams.

rocknice2wrote:

This is not over-cammed. There is still plenty of travel.

yes that is true but it is not a ideal pacement a 4 would work better

abandon moderation wrote:

I've dropped a cam into a huge slot as a nut placement. Not a super common placement, but I've done it multiple times. Often there *is* a possible active placement, but if the slot is say 1" and you only have 3" gear left, it makes sense to usery tre what you have. I've also done it when the slot is flaring open, and I wouldn't trust an active placement.

Eg, this placement:

Often the spot this happens is just as you reach a ledge/shelf or something and can just drop it in from the top. 

Nothing wrong with doing it, and not bad for your cam, assuming your cam is rated for it. Don't try it with totems, they're single axle and have no stoppers to prevent the lobes from just ballooning open.

very true about the totem thing they have zero passive strength.

abandon moderation wrote:

Marc, have you ever seen a positive result from responding to Tradiban? What's that saying about "fool me twice"...

Despite our near-constant disappointment, we all hope that young Mr. Ban will one day grow up to be a productive member of society. I gotta admit though, 2/10 times, he gets me chuckling every time.

I have used one passive before in a crack that opened up inside like a pod. It was a #1 c4. Seemed like it would have held but felt wrong.

Tradibanwrote:

Meh. If you don’t know how to place cams you might get hard for that. Otherwise, it’s a gimmick.

Are you saying my post didn't make you hard? That's not what you always tell me!

abandon moderation wrote:

Marc, have you ever seen a positive result from responding to Tradiban? What's that saying about "fool me twice"...

Not at all. I just like poking the bear every now and then to see what unfettered gibberish ensues.

I fundamentally understand the value of passive placements in certain situations.  

I get that totems don't have passive strength which is okay, especially as you can use their active modes in a lot of those situations 

But what is a camstop?  

Bailey Nicholsonwrote:

I fundamentally understand the value of passive placements in certain situations.  

I get that totems don't have passive strength which is okay, especially as you can use their active modes in a lot of those situations 

But what is a camstop?  

A cam-stop is a little ridge of metal preventing the cams from rotating open too far.  Contrary to what was said above, cam-stops are not robust enough to allow a cam to be place passively and will sheer off under a hard fall.  The double axle design is what allows passive placements to work. 

so its the thing at the top of the cam, still confused lol 

The cam stops are the overlap at the top of the cam in this picture. 

Metolius ultralight cam

Amazing thank you. Sorry for the idiot question 

Flakes of wrath (Wall Street, Moab) takes a bomber  .75 passive cam placement.  You could probably fiddle a hex or a large nut into the same space, but it's a lot easier to just dump a cam in there and keep on climbing! 

It's the only route I have intentionally placed a passive cam. It works great and it would no doubt catch a fall! 

I think the double axle and cam stops come into play not so much in intentional passive cam placements but more commonly when the cam gets moved by the rope and ends up more open. Imagine placing a .3 in a constriction if it gets bumped up by a foot or the rope it may end up open (or just under cammed) above the constriction but will still hold thanks to the doubles axle. I think this comes into play more than people think. I've only ripped a .2 and seen other .2s fail in a similar way (umbrella-ing), with cams that size a second axle is unrealistic.

I've seen one passive cam placement in the wild, and it worked in lieu of a giant nut in a very flared crack. I followed the pitch and laughed at first when I saw it, and then looked around and it was actually one of the better options at that stance. 3/4 up P1 Princely Ambitions at Index.

K Gowrote:

I've seen one passive cam placement in the wild, and it worked in lieu of a giant nut in a very flared crack. I followed the pitch and laughed at first when I saw it, and then looked around and it was actually one of the better options at that stance. 3/4 up P1 Princely Ambitions at Index.

That’s a passive tri-cam placement.

I've put the biggest purple BD offset nut in there before and it was good but it can disappear if it falls down too far. I don't typically carry tricams at index, and most people I know don't even own them. Not saying the cam was the best option, but it certainly wasn't going to pull out and it was fast. A lot of people I climb with barely place nuts anyway, seems to be a dying art. 

I had to place a cam in a passive placement once...  but its because I didn't have the nuts to lead it.

Eric Craig wrote:

 It's nice to know you are familiar with the placement here. You post confirms what the two pictures suggest, but I wasn't sure of. As for tricams, I owned and very occasionally used them. As for stopper type nuts, I get that a lot of people rarely use or even carry them anymore. I think they are missing the boat on this one. Good stopper placements are common, can be just as quick as, sometimes quicker than , cam placements, and have their own advantages. 

Yeah that's a spot where I've seen and used a lot of variety of pro. I'd love to poll people on what they have used.
I love nuts, mostly offset nuts, but I don't generally carry much bigger than the purple BD offset, especially at Index. Beyond that if the crack is big I can usually get a cam like a totem or offset Z4 to work. But at places like Tieton with junk cracks.... I carry every nut I own, maybe tricams too just for more passive options. Rarely use tricams in active mode however, except for gear anchors sometimes. 

ethan parrawrote:

yes that is true but it is not a ideal pacement a 4 would work better

Bit of a side track and I apologize but it’s worth pointing out that a 5 would actually be ideal there. It seems you may have picked up the incorrect mythical knowledge that overcamming is bad.

Cams should be placed nearly fully cammed. The only downside to actual over camming is you lose your cam. As far as I’m concerned the definition of overcammed is your follower couldn’t easily get it out. The downside to undercamming is you could go to the hospital or die if the cam rips.

I’ve followed an “experienced” trad leader where not a single cam would have held, and when I asked them about it, they said they didn’t want to overcam them. Don’t let this be you.

Place gear that will save your life! Find some reputable youtube videos or pay a guide for an afternoon of placing gear on the ground.