Wear helmets, ye kids especially

Alec Owrote:

I’ll say it again. If you are making money on a climbing photograph, you have an obligation to model safe behavior, because your behavior really does influence people. Do whatever you want on your own time, but if your income is derived from eyeballs looking at you, it’s no longer just about your free-dum or whatever… 

Adamantly disagree with this to the fullest extent. It’s up to the individual climbing and will stay that way. No one has an obligation to provide anyone else with anything including “education” or whatever you’re suggesting here. This logic would dictate that we don’t show anyone overweight in media or drinking or smoking because “the obligation of the producer to censor reality which is deranged. 

Alec Owrote:

I’ll say it again. If you are making money on a climbing photograph, you have an obligation to model safe behavior, because your behavior really does influence people. Do whatever you want on your own time, but if your income is derived from eyeballs looking at you, it’s no longer just about your free-dum or whatever… 

I’ve had many images published over the years. Some wore helmets, some didn’t.  I never felt it was my responsibility to ask them to wear one and never once considered pulling the plug on a shoot because of it.  

apogeewrote:

Of those who appear to be rigidly anti-helmet

This is such a weird take and is not only exhausting it just discredits your position. No one is “rigidly anti helmet”. No one is even anti helmet in any capacity at all. Every climber on earth has a risk tolerance and setting they would put on a helmet for. Hazel Findlay routinely climbs without a helmet, is she anti helmet? Caldwell? The Harringtons? Is Sharma rigidly anti helmet? You yourself reading this probably don’t wear a helmet leading in a gym is that anti helmet? Just such a weird take, no one is refusing to wear a helmet regardless of the situation. I wear a helmet climbing ice or alpine and not generally at a crag unless it’s indicated, am I now anti helmet even though I’m happy to put one on? It has nothing to do with “my freedoms!” Or the odd notion that we can’t afford it or something. Sometimes a helmet seems more necessary than others so that’s when we put them on. It’s really not that deep and it’s genuinely weird how worked up other people get about this when it couldn’t affect you less. Imagine I start a thread saying “NO ONE should ever solo again OR run it out more than 5ft on a trad climb! I’m serious!” That’s how yall sound here. I’m honestly not entirely convinced half these comments aren’t bots because they just don’t make sense. 

Tanner Jameswrote:

Adamantly disagree with this to the fullest extent. It’s up to the individual climbing and will stay that way. No one has an obligation to provide anyone else with anything including “education” or whatever you’re suggesting here. This logic would dictate that we don’t show anyone overweight in media or drinking or smoking because “the obligation of the producer to censor reality which is deranged. 

I appreciate that perspective and just want to draw a distinction here. Shooting photos for instagram so a brand can pay you money is NOT the same as making a documentary film. I have no problem with something like Free Solo, which shows outrageously dangerous behavior, because it's an attempt to document a real-life feat, and I really appreciate that the danger of it is placed in the proper context. Hopping on a climb for photos so your sponsors get what they want isn't the same thing. After all, we call it being an "influencer" for a reason. If you can wear a certain pair of shoes, or use a certain brand of rope, or wear a certain t-shirt for $$$, then you can put on a helmet. All of those things are done in an effort to influence the habits of the consumers who see the photo. But also, eliminating smoking from TV and Film has had a real-life positive benefit on public health, with absolutely no negative downside: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4784919/. And the comment I quoted shows how changing behavior in pro cycling changed behavior among recreational cyclists. Please don't call me deranged.

(Also, worth noting that in your next comment, you cited a bunch of pros who don't wear helmets in paid media to support your position that it's generally ok and acceptable not to wear one. You might think you're immune from the influence of these types of media, but you're not. No one is.)

Rob Kepleywrote:

I’ve had many images published over the years. Some wore helmets, some didn’t.  I never felt it was my responsibility to ask them to wear one and never once considered pulling the plug on a shoot because of it.  

I have no doubt, and I think the attitude around this has changed over the years. But, the point of my post is to try to get you to rethink this in the future. As I said above, the athletes you shot were wearing sponsored clothing and gear in order to influence the behavior of the people seeing the photo. I don't see a difference between that and saying "wear a helmet to influence consumers to wear one, too."

Alec Owrote:

I’ll say it again. If you are making money on a climbing photograph, you have an obligation to model safe behavior, because your behavior really does influence people. Do whatever you want on your own time, but if your income is derived from eyeballs looking at you, it’s no longer just about your free-dum or whatever… 

Promoting safety is not the purpose of 99% of climbing photography. If it was, then we should only shoot products on their hangers and the “extreme” “action“ shots would be taken on toproped climbs or the approach. 

I get what you’re saying, and could even agree when it comes to specific influencers, but it doesn’t really apply to paid gigs where the employer is looking to promote their product, not the bright orange helmet demanding everyone’s attention.

Alec Owrote:

I’ll say it again. If you are making money on a climbing photograph, you have an obligation to model safe behavior, because your behavior really does influence people. Do whatever you want on your own time, but if your income is derived from eyeballs looking at you, it’s no longer just about your free-dum or whatever… 

Bullshit

Tanner Jameswrote:

This is such a weird take and is not only exhausting it just discredits your position. No one is “rigidly anti helmet”. No one is even anti helmet in any capacity at all. Every climber on earth has a risk tolerance and setting they would put on a helmet for. Hazel Findlay routinely climbs without a helmet, is she anti helmet? Caldwell? The Harringtons? Is Sharma rigidly anti helmet?

Are you Hazel Findlay? Or Tommy Caldwell? Because last time I checked, this thread is about kids wearing helmets and those people aren’t kids

You yourself reading this probably don’t wear a helmet leading in a gym is that anti helmet?

I’m not sure what you are trying to say here. Again, this is about kids climbing outdoors and you just used the word “you” Twice in a row

Just such a weird take, no one is refusing to wear a helmet regardless of the situation. I wear a helmet climbing ice or alpine and not generally at a crag unless it’s indicated, am I now anti helmet even though I’m happy to put one on?

Are you 12?

It has nothing to do with “my freedoms!” Or the odd notion that we can’t afford it or something. Sometimes a helmet seems more necessary than others so that’s when we put them on. 

No shit. But that’s not what this is about. That being said, not wearing a helmet in a potentially dangerous situation and getting injured just puts a whole lot more lives at risk than you

It’s really not that deep and it’s genuinely weird how worked up other people get about this when it couldn’t affect you less.

I’d rather not carry a kid out of the crag because someone dropped a Grigri on their head and cracked their skull open. 

Imagine I start a thread saying “NO ONE should ever solo again OR run it out more than 5ft on a trad climb! I’m serious!”

Found the sport climber! Do I get a prize? It’s not a very good comparison because you know about a runout before the climb, but not about the falling rock that’s about to hit your child before the climb. Also, a 5 foot runout? 5 feet is about as runout as gym sport climbing. 

That’s how yall sound here. I’m honestly not entirely convinced half these comments aren’t bots because they just don’t make sense. 

Beep Boop :(

Alec Owrote:

I appreciate that perspective and just want to draw a distinction here. Shooting photos for instagram so a brand can pay you money is NOT the same as making a documentary film. I have no problem with something like Free Solo, which shows outrageously dangerous behavior, because it's an attempt to document a real-life feat, and I really appreciate that the danger of it is placed in the proper context. Hopping on a climb for photos so your sponsors get what they want isn't the same thing. After all, we call it being an "influencer" for a reason. If you can wear a certain pair of shoes, or use a certain brand of rope, or wear a certain t-shirt for $$$, then you can put on a helmet. All of those things are done in an effort to influence the habits of the consumers who see the photo.

“The force can have a strong influence on the weak minded.”    Obi-Wan Kenobi

Ezra Hendersonwrote:

Are you Hazel Findlay? Or Tommy Caldwell? Because last time I checked, this thread is about kids wearing helmets and those people aren’t kids

I’m not sure what you are trying to say here. Again, this is about kids climbing outdoors and you just used the word “you” Twice in a row

Are you 12?

Found the sport climber! Do I get a prize? It’s not a very good comparison because you know about a runout before the climb, but not about the falling rock that’s about to hit your child before the climb. Also, a 5 foot runout? 5 feet is about as runout as gym sport climbing. 

I make a rational statement responding to a disconnected argument and the kid whose profile says he’s 15 asks me if I’m 12 as a rebuttal lol. Mountain project always delivers thank you Ezra! I’ve never been accused of being a sport climber either, oddly irrelevant but an interesting point to try to make. Probably because it would be difficult to argue why you’re comfortable screeching about helmets and not comfortable trying to shame the guy who doesn’t place as much gear as you. This thread clearly hasn’t been about kids exclusively since the 3rd comment. Like I said - this topic makes people weird, but we all handle and respond to risk differently. 

ETA: it is an actually jarring realization that the person you’re arguing with on the internet very well could be a student furiously typing under his desk in the middle of 9th grade history 

Tanner Jameswrote:

Like I said - this topic makes people weird...

Yeah...and it makes people interpret posts in the way they want to hear them, Tanner James.

Can we go back to talking about something easier, like dogs at the crags?

Tanner Jameswrote:

I make a rational statement responding to a disconnected argument and the kid whose profile says he’s 15 asks me if I’m 12 as a rebuttal lol.

Its unfortunate that the 15 year old knows how to format a sentence better than you.

Mountain project always delivers thank you Ezra! I’ve never been accused of being a sport climber either, oddly irrelevant but an interesting point to try to make.

Like your argument about bots? Or my age? Read your own comments before you type something like this.

Probably because it would be difficult to argue why you’re comfortable screeching about helmets and not comfortable trying to shame the guy who doesn’t place as much gear as you.

https://googlethatforyou.com/?q=how%20to%20develop%20self%20awareness 

 This thread clearly hasn’t been about kids exclusively since the 3rd comment. Like I said - this topic makes people weird, but we all handle and respond to risk differently. 

It’s never a bad idea to look back at what the thread is actually about. This thread also hasn’t been about people screeching about helmets until now, but I digress. 

Tanner Jameswrote:

I make a rational statement responding to a disconnected argument and the kid whose profile says he’s 15 asks me if I’m 12 as a rebuttal lol. Mountain project always delivers thank you Ezra! I’ve never been accused of being a sport climber either, oddly irrelevant but an interesting point to try to make. Probably because it would be difficult to argue why you’re comfortable screeching about helmets and not comfortable trying to shame the guy who doesn’t place as much gear as you. This thread clearly hasn’t been about kids exclusively since the 3rd comment. Like I said - this topic makes people weird, but we all handle and respond to risk differently. 

Ezra wears a helmet, while on the ground, checking out tree roots...I’m not sure you can win this one Tanner.

Walt Peterswrote:

“The force can have a strong influence on the weak minded.”    Obi-Wan Kenobi

Doesn’t the force also have influence on the strong minded? technically, it is also directing one’s actions, supposedly bringing about someone to bring unity, all kinds of stuff. so sure, while it can influence a storm trooper to believe that those are not the droids that one is looking for, Obi-Wan would be a fool to believe he is not being used similarly by the force for its own goals. no?

these guys on the council thought they were so smart and never even considered this stuff, no wonder they got completely pwned by the dark side. 

oh yeah, waiting to hear about what other tools people have to protect kids against random rockfall at the crowd. black diamond star wars defense?

I should have put my helmet on before I started reading this thread, as I am pretty sure it gave me brain damage

George Bracksieckwrote:

No memes in the text thread!

Y'all really make me wanna bring out my boom box, 2 Live Crew, and GG Allin cassettes to the crag. But y'all have inspired me to wear my helmet, anytime I solo naked. 

Danny Birchmanwrote:

Y'all really make me wanna bring out my boom box, 2 Live Crew, and GG Allin cassettes to the crag. 

Im here for this

Tradibanwrote:

Melon testing is for “likes” and is not a realistic representation of a rock striking a human head. I will put it in layman terms for you.

In this case the melon is trapped between the helmet and an unmovable object, the floor. The human head would “give”, this Youtube science is showing a melon being crushed not struck by a falling rock.

Yeah... the melon is getting even more energy absorbed, worst case scenario....and still survives with a helmet. The point is even stronger. Now I can see you're not scientifically minded at all. More Ace Ventura rear end talking I see.

Redacted Redactbergwrote:

Yeah... the melon is getting even more energy absorbed, worst case scenario....and still survives with a helmet. The point is even stronger. Now I can see you're not scientifically minded at all. More Ace Ventura rear end talking I see.

The only thing that's important here is someone aborted that melon for science. We have to stand for values or we fall!