TRS- micro traxion back up thought

Hey y’all - hope the day is solid.

I’ve recently been top rope soling on just a single micro traction with a DIY chest harness to keep the device up-right and moving smoothly.

It’s been amazing…such a smooth climb (traction just glides up the rope).

However, I wouldn’t mind some sort of backup just in case of total failure of the traction and/or user error (disengaging the teeth in some way).

was just thinking about a somewhat safer way. I’m aware most people would state to back up the micro traxion with another one and/or a similar device, etc. 

Am I wrong to think that a catastrophe knot (down low….lets say 10 feet of the deck) would be the simplest, not going to fall to my death solution, if I’m set on just using a single micro traxion?

Typing this up while taking a poop via phone. Apologies if it reads choppy.

-Buzz

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/113679907/describe-your-tr-solo-setup

You should be able to find a lot of prior discussion of your exact quandary using the (albeit clunky) forum search.

Thanks Andy. Appreciate the thread share. Love it!!

I will say, MP doesn't make it easy to search for the term TRS, even in quotes it spits out a bunch of junk amongst some TRS content., mostly TR/toprope related discussion.

Im sure others will chime in as it's a topic ripe with strong opinions.  But simple answer in my "strong opinion" is that multiple catastrophe knots will eliminate some failure modes that come with single device TRS, but not all. Consider disabling the lock-out tab on the microtrax.  

Hi Buzz -- there is a Facebook group dedicated solely to TRS; lots of examples and opinions there.  Basically, whatever options you choose -- single/double strand ropes, static/dynamic, etc -- someone will tell you that you're gonna die.  It's well intentioned, though.

In terms of the single knot near the bottom -- it would be an exciting ride ;)

I use a single Petzl static line and two different devices.  It's no more hassle than the single device, and adds an extra measure of safety when switching over to rappel mode at the top of the route.  

Use google to search this site.

google "mountainproject forum TRS setup"

Could you explain your reasoning why you only want to use a single device?  

And would you feel comfortable falling the whole pitch and having the micro slam in to a knot?  Or maybe you fall 60' and then teeth then engage?  Both of those scenarios fall way outside of what the device was designed to do so I'd have a hard time considering that a backup.  That is more of a thank whatever god you believe in system than a backup.

I know more than one person who's had the top trax fail to engage in a fall. YMMV, but over the long haul, maybe not.

All devices have a failure mode, and with enough time TR soloing there's a nontrivial chance you'll eventually encounter one of those failure modes. Hence, backups.

The problem with the "catastrophe knot" as your only backup is that you still end up sliding down the rope to the knot. The knot may prevent the full catastrophe (hitting the ground), but lots of other bad stuff can still happen as you slide down the rope for 50 feet and potentially hit rock features on the way down. Another problem is that most people in that situation will grab the rope (the try-not-to-die instinct) and that results in horrendous rope burns. An account of one such incident (I think the article's conclusions are a bit off, but the account of the accident is worth reading):

https://www.climbing.com/people/mortality-salience-how-a-rope-soloing-fall-made-me-rethink-my-climbing-obsession/

As a result, using two devices is the preferred solution. There's very good reason to have two devices, and very little reason not to. A well-considered system will be very safe, run smoothly, and be easy to set up. There's lots of debate as to which to devices to use and how to configure them. See one of the dozens of threads on the topic to decide.

Everyone I know who does TRS has had something happen to defeat a device. Ice, backpack strap, T-Shirt, hair, chunk of rock, etc...

Use 2 devices.

google josh wharton top rope solo. he explains his setup, one of many but it works really well. if he needs two devices, you do too (we all do). this system is very simple and non-invasive. the crux is finding a camp lift?

Just throw an ascender underneath the micro and you’re good to go. It slides just as smoothly as with a single micro

Buzz Letzterwrote:

Hey y’all - hope the day is solid.

I’ve recently been top rope soling on just a single micro traction with a DIY chest harness to keep the device up-right and moving smoothly.

It’s been amazing…such a smooth climb (traction just glides up the rope).

However, I wouldn’t mind some sort of backup just in case of total failure of the traction and/or user error (disengaging the teeth in some way).

was just thinking about a somewhat safer way. I’m aware most people would state to back up the micro traxion with another one and/or a similar device, etc. 

Am I wrong to think that a catastrophe knot (down low….lets say 10 feet of the deck) would be the simplest, not going to fall to my death solution, if I’m set on just using a single micro traxion?

Typing this up while taking a poop via phone. Apologies if it reads choppy.

-Buzz

Lots of people have taken long rides using this exact setup. Those people now use two devices. 

I remember reading about using a clamping device as the primary device and a toothed device should be the secondary? Somebody fact check me on this one... 

personally I use a single device and tie knots every 10 feet or so. 

Ira OMCwrote:

personally I use a single device and tie knots every 10 feet or so. 

For those that prefer this method... Why? It seems less safe (debatably) and less convenient (definitely) than 2 devices without backup knots. I don't see the advantage. 

Not criticizing, just curious as to the thought process behind this preference.

JCMwrote:

For those that prefer this method... Why? It seems less safe (debatably) and less convenient (definitely) than 2 devices without backup knots. I don't see the advantage. 

Not criticizing, just curious as to the thought process behind this preference.

Ugh I just typed a long response but it posted wrong. I'm too tired to type it all again..

Suffice to say that my TRS setup changes s lot based on the route and the application. Lots of the time I'm doing it to work on establishing new routes and I use a grigri so I can go up and down to work sections and figure out bolting. Then I tie a knot just below the area that I'm working on. Also, don't need to switch devices at the top. 

In other cases, I go from bottom to top in one go with the micro and I tie knots before the cruxes. In a way, a knot eases my mind more than a second device would. It's like taking a lead fall. 

When I go out just TRS for the hell of it, I use 2 devices. But a lot of the time I wasn't planning on TRS and only doing it as a plan B. So I only have 1 device with me. 

And yep, I  have experienced human error/defeated device twice. Once the bag for my pocket aider got stuck in the microtrax teeth while I was jugging.  I was attached to my jumar as well so I was able to untangle it all. Other time was one ice, device got iced up and I tied a knot and just didn't fall ... now I just don't really TRS ice at all. That was definitely sketchy-  but a second device would have also probably been iced up as well. 

I'm definitely not advocating for single device usage. But as with everything climbing, it's important to be aware and adaptable. A second device could also fail, it's difficult to monitor 2 devices at the same time ...  A knot will never let you fall past that point. It gives me mental security. I tie knots even when I have 2 devices... 

A single knot 50 feet down sounds terrible to me. Especially if you are using a static rope, you'd fall to that knot and break your pelvis into tiny pieces. 

Well I guess I pretty much wrote it all out again..... 

Ira OMCwrote:

Ugh I just typed a long response but it posted wrong. I'm too tired to type it all again..

Suffice to say that my TRS setup changes s lot based on the route and the application.

Great answer. Agree it's context dependent. Makes sense given those use cases you describe. There are other folks who use one device + knots for regular TR solo laps; that doesn't make sense to me.

 ...

I'm definitely not advocating for single device usage. But as with everything climbing, it's important to be aware and adaptable. A second device could also fail, it's difficult to monitor 2 devices at the same time ...  A knot will never let you fall past that point. It gives me mental security. I tie knots even when I have 2 devices.

This is an interesting question and less settled: With a 2 device system, do you still "need" backup knots? 

For me that part is context dependent. If I'm just hucking laps on a route, and have 2 devices, I don't bother to stop and tie backup knots. If I'm hanging around on the rope working a crux, I will tie a backup knot.

What do others think of this question?

Thanks for all the responses everyone. I appreciate it all…

My thoughts:

- use a secondary device (I may go with another micro traction or the roll n lock) 

- maybe a catastrophe knot at prior to a known crux is good (5-10 ft fall vs a 50 footer) practice. Even with two devices. I’ll see how that evolves over time…

cool thread too…I’ve always seen the threads about the devices (what to use, how to setup, etc) but I’ve always been curious about the catastrophe knot.

What do others think of this question?

Two devices, keeper knot about 20 feet above ground or end of rope, but will work without a keeper knot if circumstance dictates.

I use two devices on one rope and clip into a second rope every 10’ or so as a backup.  If both micros would fail I will only fall about 10’.  It would be hard to tie a knot in the ascension line as it is usually connected to my weighted back pack on the ground.  I have not had a Micro traction failure in about 12 years of top rope soloing.

As almost everyone else says, use two devices but the devil's in the details.  I personally usually don't use the MT as the primary device,  since if it's been weighted, it can be difficult to release it. There are many variables though.  Get Andy's new book... it's fairly broad and thorough on the subject and the best place to view options.

https://www.amazon.com/Line-Rope-Solo-Manual-Cragmanship/dp/1999700554