Climber Charles Barrett Arrested for Yosemite Sexual Assaults

Artem Vee wrote:

I named names of a legitimate climber pedophile who got busted in a sting and my post got taken down. It was to raise awareness that he was a predator, but I guess MP thinks privacy is more important than kids not getting molested.

That sucks that it was taken down, but you are doing the right thing and good on you. People here writing essays about metaphors are not helping victims or catching criminals. The way I see it the only important part of this conversation is the headline because it names a name. But to do it even better we need to name names before the arrest.

I was about to suggest the Lundy book when I saw that it was posted above. It's an excellent read, and I suggest all men read it as well as women. We simply aren't taught enough about abuse dynamics or how to spot the signs of abuse, especially if it is more on the emotional and metal side of abuse. Physical scars are visible but mental and emotional ones are not, and like Lundy says these can have much more lasting effects than physical abuse. When reading the Outside article it was clear that CB implemented all types of abuse, the scars of which will follow his victims for years. Relational trauma is very difficult to overcome and heal, I hope that his victims can find peace. 

The discussion about how anger is used as means of control made me thing of this quote:

“YOUR ABUSIVE PARTNER DOESN’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HIS ANGER; HE HAS A PROBLEM WITH YOUR ANGER.
One of the basic human rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him. No matter how badly he treats you, he believes that your voice shouldn’t rise and your blood shouldn’t boil. The privilege of rage is reserved for him alone. When your anger does jump out of you—as will happen to any abused woman from time to time—he is likely to try to jam it back down your throat as quickly as he can. Then he uses your anger against you to prove what an irrational person you are. Abuse can make you feel straitjacketed. You may develop physical or emotional reactions to swallowing your anger, such as depression, nightmares, emotional numbing, or eating and sleeping problems, which your partner may use as an excuse to belittle you further or make you feel crazy.”
― Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men

Ryan Squawwrote:

That sucks that it was taken down, but you are doing the right thing and good on you. People here writing essays about metaphors are not helping victims or catching criminals. The way I see it the only important part of this conversation is the headline because it names a name. But to do it even better we need to name names before the arrest.

You seem really earnest and well-intentioned. I'm going to share my POV. I don't think the core issue is that people need to start "naming names" on internet bulletin boards or social media. What I believe is that people need to start LISTENING when women and other victims share their stories of what happened. Don't gaslight them. Don't "both sides" it because the abuser also happens to be a great athlete or musician or politician or whatever. Support victims in seeking help and/or legal recourse.

And, as you are stating, don't leave stopping abusive behavior up to the criminal justice system alone. Societal guard rails are important. I'm not sure if it would have stopped CB entirely if, for example, he was shunned by all his climbing friends after beating his GF in the Buttermilks. Or after he did Federal time for slashing the tires of a Yosemite Ranger and threatening to kill the ranger. But doing something certainly would have been better than doing NOTHING.  

I think if someone is arrested or convicted, you can "name names." But I can't imagine MP would allow accusations to be posted on their website without that person already being in the judicial system. MP would get their pants sued off. 

If you have your own website, name away! (and hope that you don't get sued for false accusations).

Bruno, While I am not saying that Western European systems are bad or inherently unjust, but I do believe that the US system is better, recognizing that I have an inherent bias. Fundamentally I think a system where a citizen jury makes the final determination is a better one ( though far from perfect in terms of results) than where the decision is made by a government official---a magistrate in most European countries and where those accused have the rights and protections available here.

Most specifically, I am not aware that sexual assault cases are routinely handled ( at any level) any better in those countries than they are here. If that is not accurate, I would appreciate seeing information otherwise.

Again, there is much to improve in our system on many levels. A major fault negatively impacting all aspects of our system is the factor of race/racism. Historically that has not been a significant factor in most Western European countries, but I do wonder how well members of the immigrant communities currently are being treated by by their legal systems.

Artem Vee wrote:

I named names of a legitimate climber pedophile who got busted in a sting and my post got taken down. It was to raise awareness that he was a predator, but I guess MP thinks privacy is more important than kids not getting molested.

Are you talking about the USA Climbing Coach? Because that guy did get convicted and sentenced to 5 years after pleading guilty. There is NO mention of it on MP though, which I found strange. 

I don't think that's what we're talking about though, when openly discussing these topics. I think it's about people feeling safe enough to talk about abuse in relationships to people they trust, without those trusted people ignoring or harboring the abuser. Oftentimes, that puts the person being abused in a very vulnerable and dangerous situation as they abuser can just project their rage and anger on them again.

Andrew Ricewrote:

You seem really earnest and well-intentioned. I'm going to share my POV. I don't think the core issue is that people need to start "naming names" on internet bulletin boards or social media. What I believe is that people need to start LISTENING when women and other victims share their stories of what happened. Don't gaslight them. Don't "both sides" it because the abuser also happens to be a great athlete or musician or politician or whatever. Support victims in seeking help and/or legal recourse.

And, as you are stating, don't leave stopping crime up to the criminal justice system alone. Societal guard rails are important. I'm not sure if it would have stopped CB entirely if, for example, he was shunned by all his climbing friends after beating his GF in the Buttermilks. Or after he did Federal time for slashing the tires of a Yosemite Ranger and threatening to kill the ranger. But doing something certainly would have been better than doing NOTHING.  

But this whole discussion all started when someone named a name. Maybe it didn't make as much of a difference because he was already in jail. I'm saying what can we do to protect people before the criminals get locked up because then the damage is done. I mean of course we listen then what do we do? Just tell your friends and hope and wait until they are arrested?

I mean you can tell them to report it to the cops but we know that could take a long time for anything to happen if it ever does, like you said. I am really not following because it sounds like what you are describing is doing next to nothing.

Long Rangerwrote:

I don't think that's what we're talking about though, when openly discussing these topics. I think it's about people feeling safe enough to talk about abuse in relationships to people they trust, without those trusted people ignoring or harboring the abuser. Oftentimes, that puts the person being abused in a very vulnerable and dangerous situation as they abuser can just project their rage and anger on them again.

The level of brazen, full-bore rage, along with psychological cunning and terror this guy was able to leverage against his victims and perceived enemies was eye-opening to me. It’s so easy to say “why didn’t you speak up?” without realizing the intense intimidation, much less the often warranted fear that you will be the one blamed for rocking the boat.

I think that was a major success of the Outside article, the vivid portrait of how fast and hard this guy would turn on you. Not to mention how long he would sustain his campaigns of terror, the lengths he would go to stalk and bully. I do not doubt he had a very high risk of eventually taking somebody’s life.

Ryan Squawwrote:

But this whole discussion all started when someone named a name. Maybe it didn't make as much of a difference because he was already in jail. I'm saying what can we do to protect people before the criminals get locked up because then the damage is done. I mean of course we listen then what do we do? Just tell your friends and hope and wait until they are arrested?

I mean you can tell them to report it to the cops but we know that could take a long time for anything to happen if it ever does, like you said. I am really not following because it sounds like what you are describing is doing next to nothing.

No, dude, I'm not describing "doing next to nothing." Doxing people on social media with no other action is "doing next to nothing."

These crimes and others like them happen in the REAL WORLD. Real people were told about what happened at lots of points. Real businesses were told about what happened yet continued to sell his books, write articles about him (Climbing Magazine did an entire glowing feature about him in 2016 deliberately leaving OUT the messy details of his criminal convictions and prison time), and climbing gear companies sponsored him. Almost universally, everyone looked at their hands when made aware of his bad behavior and said, "That's not my problem..." They did NOTHING.

Doing something looks like this: When your friend says that another acquaintance in your circle assaulted her, LISTEN, and ask her how she would like you to help. Confront people when you see them doing bad things. For example, I think the Outside article talked about how when the victim CB beat unconscious in the Buttermilks later ran into him again there, and told him he needed to leave because there was a restraining order against him, other climbers just laughed it off and dismissed HER as crazy or vengeful. Don't do that. When you see your friends engaging in questionable behavior, like pressuring a woman to get wasted or to come back to his place when she doesn't want to, speak up. If you know someone is rapey, warn your female friends to steer clear. This all seems really basic to me and all more effective than being a keyboard vigilante.

Also, the cops aren't making cases based on following social media. If you know of a crime, pick up the phone, call the appropriate authorities. 

Ryan Squawwrote:

That's the opposite of what I said. Weird. ..

Ryan, I apologize for my misinterpretation.  The way you said it led me to believe you meant the exact opposite.   I have to admit though, even though I agreed in a general sense,  how you said it at face value seemed a tad over the top and thus led me to believe you were playing Devil's advocate and being facetious.  

As nearly always,  “the middle path” is often the best.   thus spake Zarathustra.

(And yes I know, I’m mixing my eastern religions and metaphors —and throwing Nietzsche in as well) 

Colonel Mustardwrote:

The level of brazen, full-bore rage, along with psychological cunning and terror this guy was able to leverage against his victims and perceived enemies was eye-opening to me. 

The level: yes "brazen, full-bore rage" is psychopathic. But I was reading that same article and just nodding my head re: the, "psychological cunning and terror", as it's pretty much on track of what my own partner's describe to me of some of their ex's. Doesn't hurt that this man has a very high level of upper body strength (as an aside).

It's sad to say, but practically every one one of my long term romantic partners have experienced some sort of abuse form their ex's and my current is dealing with - still, after years - a full on narcissist who we're pretty sure has been stalking them and continues to leave weird messages on their phone at least every month, talking as if nothing wrong ever happened. But it's the content of these messages that really creep us out. They'll mention say a specific place my current just traveled to, but there's no way they would know these trips ever happened (no social media), which leads us to believe there's some sort of tracking of their phone or vehicle going on. That's pretty f'd.

For every Barrett, I think there's many, many more of these types of guys. My experiences with my own partners probably are why I engage with threads like these.

Artem Vee wrote:

Getting busted in a sting to fuck kids is hardly a “false accusation” imo. Jacob Wren btw. Portland area. I can mail you the court documents - he took a plea.

Did you see the part where I said "if you were arrested..."? At that point, the arrest is public record. He was undoubtedly arrested?

Artem Vee wrote:

and I’m telling you that MP still deleted my posts, in spite of the court documents, news stories, everything.

Yeah, that's strange. Almost like they are protecting the accused/arrestee.

Long Rangerwrote:

The level: yes "brazen, full-bore rage" is psychopathic. But I was reading that same article and just nodding my head re: the, "psychological cunning and terror", as it's pretty much on track of what my own partner's describe to me of some of their ex's. Doesn't hurt that this man has a very high level of upper body strength (as an aside).

It's sad to say, but practically every one one of my long term romantic partners have experienced some sort of abuse form their ex's and my current is dealing with - still, after years - a full on narcissist who we're pretty sure has been stalking them and continues to leave weird messages on their phone at least every month, talking as if nothing wrong ever happened. But it's the content of these messages that really creep us out. They'll mention say a specific place my current just traveled to, but there's no way they would know these trips ever happened (no social media), which leads us to believe there's some sort of tracking of their phone or vehicle going on. That's pretty f'd.

For every Barrett, I think there's many, many more of these types of guys. My experiences with my own partners probably are why I engage with threads like these.

I agree with this. I feel like it is not uncommon for people to be in relationships that are abusive in one way or another. Not to the extent as described with this person, but it does happen. 

According to the American Psychological Association, 1.2 percent of adult males (0.5 percent in females) display "clinically significant levels of psychopathic traits". What are psychopathic traits? Pretty much what is described in this thread. 

Chances all we all, probably unawares, know someone who has been abused, or someone who is an abuser. 

FrankPSwrote:

Yeah, that's strange. Almost like they are protecting the accused/arrestee.

Onx just wants to avoid controversy, they don’t have time to fact check all the bullshit people post on here.

Perhaps the Barrett case passed the public interest over privacy test.

Still no word from Kevin Jorgenson. Wild. Still nothing like an apology from Alex Honnold. Basically silence from those who lent him credibility. 

I actually can't believe it. 

J Ewrote:

Still no word from Kevin Jorgenson. Wild. Still nothing like an apology from Alex Honnold. Basically silence from those who lent him credibility. 

I actually can't believe it. 

What did those guys actually say about Charlie?

Bruno Schullwrote:

Does anybody beleive that Brett Kavanaugh did not assault Christine Blasey Ford?  

Last, Alan, I really respect your contributions, and I generally agree with what you write, but there is one small point that does not sit well with me: 

You wrote: 

"I am very well aware that our legal system is far from perfect, though significantly better than any other that I am aware of."  

This seems overly partiotic and myopic in a particularly American way.  Are we really to beleive that the American legal system is superior to that in, say, the Northern European social democracies?  Or in Switzerland, the country where I hapen to live now?  Or, really, in any number of other places?  

I think it would be easy to identify areas where the US legal system is woefully lacking compared to other countries. 

Me.  I don't believe Brett Kavanaugh assaulted Christine Blasey Ford.  Under cross examination (by a woman) Christine could not recall when or where the assault happened.  Witnesses could not corroborate her version of events and in fact contradicted it.  Psychologically she was not the most reliable accuser.  She stated she had a morbid fear of flying and that was why she could not fly to meet investigators yet later admitted she had flown to Mexico for vacations.  

I actually have sympathy for Ms. Ford.  I think she was used as a political tool to keep Kavanaugh off the Court.  Also sad is that well publicized cases like hers make it harder for women to present cases with real incidents of rape, sexual assault, and abuse.

By the way, your spell check is not working.

J Ewrote:

Still no word from Kevin Jorgenson. Wild. Still nothing like an apology from Alex Honnold. Basically silence from those who lent him credibility. 

I actually can't believe it. 

From the Outside article, quoting the Tahoe Quarterly ..,:

‘“Charlie is a very strong, naturally talented climber,” Alex Honnold said …’

And whoever wrote the TQ piece went on to say CB was … ‘“A friend of Honnold’s …’

The ‘friend’ part wasn’t Honnold’s statement. You’d have to hear more from Honnold or direct quotes from Honnold to corroborate there was much of a friendship there.

Later in the Outside article, Honnold is quoted in what seems like a lengthy discussion about his relationship with CB - “I would see Charlie once every few years for like a day or two,” - and that that he had heard rumors that were explained away as in blame on both sides, and acknowledged that he had a “blind spot” about him ….”

I do not personally know Honnold and am not a “follower” of him. Still, I am left wondering what exactly it is that he has not already admitted that was additionally his part in all this.

And I think it was a serious mistake of the Outside piece to re-quote the third-hand part of them being friends and then only way way way later in that lengthy article to present Honnold’s first-hand view of the relationship. 

Leigh Shoffnerwrote:

Me.  I don't believe Brett Kavanaugh assaulted Christine Blasey Ford. 

So wait...what about that fact that she told others on separate occcasions, long before the confirmation hearings, about the attack and the identity of the attacker?

Or the fact that it is not only possible but highly likely that thirty years later you might not recall details about when and where a party took place when you were 15, especially if there was alcohol or violent trauma involved?

Or that Brett "frat boy" Kananaugh has an confirmed history of chronic binge drinking and deeply sexist and misoginistic attitudes?  

Or that the victim might have very good reasons to be terrrified of going to give testinomy and might make up excuses to try to avoid this?

Or that the whole affair just mirrors the typical situation of a mann in power using his reputation and anger to discredit his female accuser?  

Frankly, to cast doubt on Christine Blassey Ford, in the context of this thread, is shocking.  

YOUR ATTITUDE is why CB and so many others like him escape consequernces for so long.  

You've either internalized all the MAGA conspiracy crap, or you have internalized prevailing attitudes toward women.

(I've left some spelling mistakes in my text to trigger you).