New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #27

Jan Mcwrote:

Loose Lady is named that because of how much rock we had to knock off to make it climbable so I am well aware of how it has cleaned up.  

I must admit I haven't done the Decompensator in a long time but that never seemed like it would clean up well when I did do it.  Good to know that it did clean up.  Kris always liked that one because it doesn't have any holds and fit his style of delicate walking and not hard pulling (not that he could not always pull hard...).

“… because it doesn’t have any holds…” 

This is where we enter the realm of the magical, at least for me. I may not have enough time to deeply experience other kinds of climbing, but this has totally captured me. I was willing to work hard in the gym to do those traditional vertical routes with lots of holds, but when finally faced with outdoor routes with whole faces of “nothing“ I became a true fan.  There is a whole lot of other climbing to get through on the decompensator, but it’s that upper headwall I am most curious about.  It appears to be smooth and very steep, and it will be all delicate but strong/controlled climbing. 

Everyone okay?

4.6 is nothing. I was living in a rental house with Jan and Rachel McCollum on the epicenter of the '94 Northridge quake. It was in the wee hours of a Monday morning, and I'd driven home from Josh a few hours before. The shaking started instantly, and was so violent I didn't understand that it was an earthquake. I thought a plane was crashing on the place, or some disaster like that. Just two blocks down Reseda Blvd a two story apt complex pancaked, and 16 people were killed. Seismographs around the world called it as 7+, but Gov Pete Wilson hauled ass down to Cal Tech and twisted arms until they came in with 6.7, saving the state billions in relief funding that triggers automatically at 7.0 or higher.

The vertical acceleration of the quake was the highest ever recorded in an urban area.

Kris, does vertical acceleration mean bounce?    I lived in Glendale at the time and was jolted out of a deep sleep when all the empty wine bottles and college books that were lined up high in my room tumbled over me on my bed. I’m really lucky I didn’t get a bad conk on the noggin. My mother was standing in her doorway, screaming for our parakeet, and I thought it very telling she was more concerned for the bird than for me.   But it was the aftershocks that went on for weeks or even a few months that had me a nervous wreck.  My brother lived in Northridge and his new wife never did get over the terror even to this day.

So I give due respect even to a 4.5.

———

I’ve been in Northern California for a bit, Tony stayed behind and so I am roaming. I am still intently curious about this new body at age 70. We are somewhat at odds (my physical self and what I want to do). I am a little bit aligned with Erika who has had a really rough year, it sounds like it’s been tied to Covid, and I have felt likewise, although she is now having a harder time. It’s like… Something else is going on besides simple aging.

But all that aside, the question persists: What can I do to be to healthiest and strongest possible woman right now? (Ok, specifically, how can I be strong enough to climb my intended routes without exhaustion later?) I have been listening to a WHOOP podcast by Dr. Vonda Wright, who is an orthopedic surgeon with a specialty in aging.  

Darned if the subject of protein doesn’t come up again and again— particularly in regards to seniors, and even more so in regards to senior athletes. I think it’s unanimous out there in the biohacking world 1 g of protein per pound of ideal body weight is required —AT THE VERY MINIMUM.   . And I’ve been working hard on this but don’t come close. That would be for me 130 g of protein per day, and it’s hard to fathom. Especially because milk products like whey are not an option for me on the daily.

But she says it’s now been agreed that loss of muscle mass is not a certainty, You can halve the VO two max loss through diet and moderate physical training.  

Even with some of the outside factors that hold us back (eg Covid, chronic diseases) the effort to hit some targets is worthwhile. I felt like I turned a big corner on Grain Surgery . Something just changed. Even though it wasn’t a clean climb, I felt strong, capable, and able to bring back whatever I will need to send it next time. I don’t feel frail, I don’t fall, and if something tumbles off a shelf I usually catch it mid air. So I think all the work means something.

For me, the biggest hold out is my 60s attitude that everything is free and life should be effortless. I never saw myself counting grams of protein or doing circuit training in a gym. I have a deep resistance to all this stuff, but I love climbing more.   

Those WHOOP podcasts are all free. I may have to send them a little note about their assumptions that “advanced age“ involves 50-year-olds. I don’t know if anyone out there feels like an audience of a dozen people is worth the effort of addressing 65+ers. 

 Folsom Lake (Beales Point) yesterday.  

Lori Milaswrote:

But she says it’s now been agreed that loss of muscle mass is not a certainty, You can halve the VO two max loss through diet and moderate physical training.  

This may be true in many cases? In my case, I’m not trying to gain weight and have been training to lose fat, but I appear to gaining muscle mass?

Interesting regarding VO2? What diet can help reduce the loss? Which foods would be good for this?

When I hike with my wife and daughter, my heart rate jumps to 145 attempting to keep pace with them, then it takes nearly 5 minutes rest to drop below 95, again. Definitely need something.

‘Something just changed. Even though it wasn’t a clean climb, I felt strong, capable, and able to bring back whatever I will need to send it next time. I don’t feel frail, I don’t fall, and if something tumbles off a shelf I usually catch it mid air. So I think all the work means something.’

Lori - this is fantastic! The work does pay off - and I love that you are noticing changes in other aspects of your life. The feeling you are describing sounds like self-efficacy - also fantastic!

The ‘typical’ adult (mostly sedentary) requires 0.8-1.0 g/kg protein each day. Athletes require more - 1.2 -1,5 g/kg for endurance athletes and can be as much as 2g/kg for strength athletes (power lifters, body builders, shot putters etc). Older adults (and yes, over 50 is that group - not to say that needs don’t change as we age further) do need more protein especially older athletes. The 1g/lb body weight is really just a simplification to take the metric conversion out and to serve as an easier guideline to remember. Most of us probably would be good with the 1.5g/kg recommendation.

I’m sure you know, but easy ways to add protein to your diet are nut butters (add to smoothies, spread on toast, put on apples); all nuts/legumes/seeds (added bonus of fiber, add to salads, smoothies, eat as snacks); beans (I put beans on salads and make hummus for lunch/snacks). Chia seeds are a protein and fiber superfood - I put them in yogurt, salads, smoothies. I know you have a deep knowledge of nutrition so correct me if you know differently, my understanding is that plant based and animal sources of proteins are equivalent (we used to think plant wasn’t as good and you needed more to equate to animal sources).

As for me, I am doing really well. Got through covid without the prolonged illness/fatigue I had last time (in 2022). So I’m back on track with managing the autoimmune stuff. I had to go off my meds while I was on paxlovid for covid and that sucked. It’s possible the condition I’m managing was exacerbated or triggered by that first covid infection, but really hard to say. Lots of autoimmune disorders in my family, so probably was always there lurking.

I’ve been focusing on eating anti inflammatory foods and I think it has helped how I feel overall. My downfall is my sweet tooth but craving sugar less the longer I go. Kimchi scrambled eggs are amazing. Would love any ideas others have for adding fermented foods, high fiber, etc. 

We need a diet/nutrition sub-thread! 

Li Huwrote:

This may be true in many cases? In my case, I’m not trying to gain weight and have been training to lose fat, but I appear to gaining muscle mass?

Interesting regarding VO2? What diet can help reduce the loss? Which foods would be good for this?

When I hike with my wife and daughter, my heart rate jumps to 145 attempting to keep pace with them, then it takes nearly 5 minutes rest to drop below 95, again. Definitely need something.

I’m not aware of any particular diet that can help VO2max. It’s all conditioning. You have to work at high intensity to increase VO2max. Think interval training. We all have a genetic component to what our max VO2 is. Once you get near that threshold further gains are really impossible. What we can increase to get performance gains is lactate threshold. Again - intervals and training near threshold for this.

Our max potential does decrease with age - that is highly established. But we can slow those losses with training, and maintain our ability to work near the threshold limit (although the limit is lower than when we were younger).

HR is a fair proxy (not great) for VO2 (it’s not linear). You can use it to establish some intensity guidelines for training. Use the Tanaka equation to figure out your theoretical predicted HR max (208-0.7*age). Then find Heart Rate Reserve - max HR - resting HR. Use Karvonen equation to determine target heart rate for training. You want to be 70-80% intensity for intervals (varies and of course depends on your health status, cardiac risk, and current fitness level). Example for 70%: Target HR = RHR + 0.7*HRR where RHR = resting HR and HRR = heart rate reserve.

I don't know if any of this is helpful or not! 

ErikaNWwrote:

‘The ‘typical’ adult (mostly sedentary) requires 0.8-1.0 g/kg protein each day. Athletes require more - 1.2 -1,5 g/kg for endurance athletes and can be as much as 2g/kg for strength athletes (power lifters, body builders, shot putters etc). Older adults (and yes, over 50 is that group - not to say that needs don’t change as we age further) do need more protein especially older athletes. The 1g/lb body weight is really just a simplification to take the metric conversion out and to serve as an easier guideline to remember. Most of us probably would be good with the 1.5g/kg recommendation.

At 88kg, it may be difficult to consume this much protein?

Nut butters contain a lot more fat than other sources, I think I’d end up back at 110kg eating those :-/

We need a diet/nutrition sub-thread! 

I’d subscribe! Definitely need some diet help!

I wonder if we can create an over 50 Topic that allows threads such as this one to be opened within?

Li Huwrote:

At 88kg, it may be difficult to consume this much protein?

Nut butters contain a lot more fat than other sources, I think I’d end up back at 110kg eating those :-/

I’d subscribe! Definitely need some diet help!

I wonder if we can create an over 50 Topic that allows threads such as this one to be opened within?

132 g/day does take some intent, but should be doable. You probably don’t want to get all of it from nut butters! A tablespoon here and there isn’t going to hurt you, but yes they are high calorie.

Oh Erika… I’m so happy for you!  I must have missed that you had Covid twice. One day in the future we will probably learn what exactly this illness, and possibly even vaccines for some of us, did to disrupt our bodies. My own issues are all auto immune related, and I guess that’s good to know when sleuthing for answers.  But it sounds like you are on the mend and the one thing we have had to learn from this is patience and hope. It does get better.   (and then it gets worse and then it gets better.)

I perked right up with your mention of fermented foods. Lent is coming up for me and I decided that for 40 days I would have some kind of organic probiotic every day.  Not exactly a traditional Catholic resolution, but seemed the most important thing I could do right now—Aside from insisting our park visitors to stop leaving graffiti everywhere.    

I think a sub thread would be wonderful, and would spare the non-interested the tedium of wading through treatises on protein. 

On top of whatever is known scientifically about aging, I also have some deeply held beliefs of my own. Years ago I listened to a teaching from a yogi who said “the universe bends over backwards to fulfill the intentions of our souls.”

In other words, when you have a deeply held desire, you don’t have to do anything to “make” it happen. You have to simply loosely hold that desire and events will come together to create the fulfillment. Similarly, I believe that “the body eavesdrops on the conversation in the mind and steps forward to fulfill it.“

So for me, this is really practical. In the realm of climbing , for instance… it starts with seeing a formation and falling in love with it.  Then there is that first reconnaissance climb just to see what is involved. I assume after that that my body is going to work to create the necessary strength, and Endurance to send the route, however long that may take.  

I think this goes for anything we want to do in this world: ride that horse, lift a certain poundage of weights, climb a route, run a marathon.  As the years go by, I do think our worldly experiences are far more about intention with the body stepping up to fulfill what we are seeing in our heads.  

Li Hu, I don’t believe she was saying any specific diet will help with this VO2 max, but that certain moderate training consistently and overtime can cut that decline in half. If I listen to her podcast again, I’ll see if I can find the exact statement.  She described an experience that I also have – – probably all of us have – – these days, of it taking longer to get in a comfortable groove when exercising. Like the first 5 to 10 minutes of a long hike, having to push through breathlessness and get on a roll. I’m definitely there as well. Frustrating! 

Li Huwrote:

At 88kg, it may be difficult to consume this much protein?

Nut butters contain a lot more fat than other sources, I think I’d end up back at 110kg eating those :-/

I’d subscribe! Definitely need some diet help!

I wonder if we can create an over 50 Topic that allows threads such as this one to be opened within?

It's definitely interesting to learn what works for everyone,  just not from someone who has it all figured  out by age 30. I could  eat fast food junk or organic vegetarian food and have plenty of energy with no weight gain until my early 40s. Now it's a battle of the calorie, I could probably quit drinking so much beer but instead  have chose to eat healthier foods which seems to manage my weight well. In my prime I was a skinny 170, these days I'm between 185-195 depending on the season(I gain 10# every  winter). Beans and long grain rice seem to be in most evening meals and an egg for breakfast almost daily.  I even started making veggie sausage patties to go on my egg and cheese sandwich, always whole grain/wheat bread as well. If I want fries at dinner it's sweet potato fries, not regular white potatoes. 

M Mwrote:

It's definitely interesting to learn what works for everyone,  just not from someone who has it all figured  out by age 30. I could  eat fast food junk or organic vegetarian food and have plenty of energy with no weight gain until my early 40s. Now it's a battle of the calorie, I could probably quit drinking so much beer but instead  have chose to eat healthier foods which seems to manage my weight well. In my prime I was a skinny 170, these days I'm between 185-195 depending on the season(I gain 10# every  winter). Beans and long grain rice seem to be in most evening meals and an egg for breakfast almost daily.  I even started making veggie sausage patties to go on my egg and cheese sandwich, always whole grain/wheat bread as well. If I want fries at dinner it's sweet potato fries, not regular white potatoes. 

This diet sounds pretty reasonable. We’re probably roughly the same build from the sound of it, thanks for this.

As an insulin dependent diabetic weight gain is almost inevitable for me. I once calculated 500 extra calories daily from feeding low blood sugars.  With total focus I could reduce that but never eliminate it. I always carry sugar with me. 
Seems we must make peace with what is, and be generous with self-acceptance.  Those few extra pounds are disappointing but not game changers. (Except they make climbing harder).  I’m just grateful we are still here and going hard.    

+1 for kimchi scrambled eggs.  We add some protein and other veggies in there as well.

Plus, it was almost 60 degrees here today.  First outdoor climbing day since mid-December.  Yay !

I drove 137m south to run a biathlon. no snow down there so no snow shoes.  its a fun gig. about 100shooters.   I think I was sitting in 2nd place for pistol  at the end of today but it runs all day tomorrow as well. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I drove 137m south to run a biathlon. no snow down there so no snow shoes.  its a fun gig. about 100shooters.   I think I was sitting in 2nd place for pistol  at the end of today but it runs all day tomorrow as well. 

Interesting outfit for a biathlon.

Anything old is acceptable.  Lot's of mountain man looks and brittish, French and colonial looks. This Guy is the only 1860s soldier I saw but totally fit in. Most of the serious runners have minimal outfits. Tunic and stocking cap. 

You go Nick. You’re not missing any ice climbing with this warm weather. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Anything old is acceptable.  Lot's of mountain man looks and brittish, French and colonial looks. This Guy is the only 1860s soldier I saw but totally fit in. Most of the serious runners have minimal outfits. Tunic and stocking cap. 

Only a tunic and stocking cap? Reminds me of one of my early morning hikes up here by the north fork of the American river, at least a mile and a half from my car, when a gentleman I called “naked man “came jogging toward me with only a stocking cap, not even a tunic. One of those times when you say “oh shit, what do I do now?”.