Deciding whether or not to share routes on Mountain Project. Gatekeeping?

Frank Steinwrote:

I think I mentioned this before, but there is nothing wrong with secret crags as long as they remain secret.

I guess that's true: in a hypothetical world where secret crags remained secret, secret crags would be fine.

But that hypothetical world doesn't exist. In the world which we live in, which exists, secrets get out. Even if you don't tell anyone, you are traffic, and your impact does not go unnoticed. In the best case, that impact is positive, but it still strains relations with landowners because nobody is happy about people going onto their land without telling them. In the worst case, which is much more common, those keeping secrets treat the crag like they own it, doing things like littering, making noise, and placing bolts that leak rust all over the rock. Needless to say, this puts access even more at risk. Pro-secrecy folks will blame the loss of access on failure to keep the secret, but this is dumb: keeping secrets is totally unrealistic and  was never going to work. If you want to keep access, do it the right way, and work out access with landowners before you go.

That's setting aside all the other ways secrets get out. If you can find a crag, other people can do the same things you did to find it.

bryans wrote:

I guess I must be too dumb to understand that calling someone's idea to keep a crag secret "a dumb idea" is not an insult,

I doubt you're dumb, and I'm certainly not calling you dumb. Having dumb ideas doesn't mean you're dumb. Everyone has dumb ideas. Smart people have dumb ideas. I have dumb ideas. Having dumb ideas is an inherent part of being human, and the sooner you recognize you have some dumb ideas, the sooner you can start on the work of discovering some of those dumb ideas and eliminating them.

Trying to keep a crag secret to prevent access issues is a dumb idea. If you don't like that, only you can change your mind.

so I'll jut say that quoting and arguing with 5 different strangers in just one post is actually a dumb way to win friends and influence people and get invited to sour grapes, I mean secret crags.

I've got plenty of friends, don't need more. And I have Google satellite view.

And yes, like many, I'm working on a secret crag and this thread is keeping me and my buddies vigilant.

"Vigilant"? Bro, you already told your buddies, and you literally just told everyone on the internet you have a secret crag. You can't help yourself--you've gotta tell people, and even if you could keep your own mouth shut, that wouldn't stop people from finding the crag the same way you did. There's literally nothing you can do to keep this secret forever. Your secret crag is a future ex-secret crag. That will happen in one of two ways:

1. You can do it responsibly.
2. You can delay the inevitable, and then get dragged kicking and screaming into reality, putting access to the crag at risk in the process.

Your choice.

I don't see the issue asking the person who developed them if you can document the routes online, maybe offer them some cash for the hardware they used or gas money.

 If they say "no, please don't post it" then like... Don't. 

David Kwrote:

All the entitlement I'm seeing is from developers, some of whom apparently think that vandalizing a wall with bolts that leak rust all over the wall entitles them to my secrecy.

You've said this twice now, what bolts are leaking rust all over the wall?

Hank Caylorwrote:

You've said this twice now, what bolts are leaking rust all over the wall?

That was in reference to this:

Greg Miller wrote:

I stopped sharing new routes and areas on here because I really don’t care about the “community” and like to have secluded crags for me and my like 3 friends, honestly. Half the dorks on here would complain about the approach, rock quality or the hardware not being stainless.

It's a case in point of the stewards of a crag being totally unfit to steward a crag. If we're claiming that secrecy is good for crags, this is a pretty damning example of that being untrue. And I'll point out that I've seen this a bunch of times, particularly in the Adirondacks--Greg isn't the only one doing this bullshit.

Greg is open about the fact that he doesn't care about community and just wants a private playground. I suspect it's more common that people with secret crags think what they are doing benefits the community, but if they really were honest with themselves, they'd see that the only real benefits to secrecy are selfish.

If they’re on public land, us gumbies and out-of-towners are part of the landowning group.

Members of the public (us, in other words) do not own public land.

bryans wrote:

I guess I must be too dumb to understand that calling someone's idea to keep a crag secret "a dumb idea" is not an insult, so I'll just say that quoting and arguing with 5 different strangers in just one post is a dumb way to win friends and influence people and get invited to sour grapes, I mean secret crags. And yes, like many, I'm working on a secret crag and this thread is keeping me and my buddies vigilant.

Is it another Bat Wall Bryan? please DM me the coordinates.

Ultimately, most secret crags that we're arguing about are not world class climbing venues and no one is really missing out.  

I'm just against the spirit of elitism that is so pervasive among some route developers.

Dan Booklesswrote:

Is it another Bat Wall Bryan? please DM me the coordinates.

Ultimately, most secret crags that we're arguing about are not world class climbing venues and no one is really missing out.  

I'm just against the spirit of elitism that is so pervasive among some route developers.

As someone who knows a lot of developers with secret crags and who climbs a lot at secret crags in my experience it isn't elitism at all. It's a different perspective, but it isn't an elitist one. 

There's a lot of unproductive accusations being thrown around in this thread and I think this is one of them. 

I disagree with their reasons for keeping their crags secret sometimes, but I don't think they think that they're better or revel in having secret knowledge.

They're just quiet, private people who like climbing to reflect how they go about their lives and their other hobbies: they like to climb with a select few people and have uncrowded crags. They don't mind putting up with munge and bush whacky approaches and the hard work of route development, but if they start seeing loads of people at their crags then said crags would no longer be enjoyable to them. 

There's so much climbing within a two hour drive of me that even if I would do things completely differently were I the primary developer I just can't understand feeling strong emotions about it. If I don't like that so many people keep areas to themselves I could simply enjoy the lifetime of publicly published climbing accessible to me. 

Also, many private crags eventually spread via word of mouth to the point that they might as well be published (Jailhouse and Gold Wall are obvious examples in my area) or they become actually published. Also also most private crags are dirty, have bad approaches, and are mostly unrealized potential with maybe 5-20% of possible routes actually existing. 

Climbing at private crags a lot doesn't mean you get this amazing experience on pristine trails and well documented routes, in my experience it means spending two hours blazing trail to get there because no one's been there in four years, it means doing route maintenance on routes where no one knows who the FA is, and it means getting terrified while mega run out at a crux and then the developer going "oh yeah I did bolt it that way-- I was a lot bolder back then and thought it was more fun that way." 

These things tend to stay secret not because of elitism and heavy defense of their hidden gems, but because it's quiet people who prefer putting up with a lot of bullshit to climb than they do climbing in a convenient location with crowds. I've taken some "normie" climbers to some secret crags and they seem to be pretty universally hated by today's convenience loving climbers. 

Y'all aren't missing out on that much. Most of the really amazing private crags I've seen are working towards being published. 

Y'all are arguing about people wanting to keep some mungey single pitch with bad approaches to themselves. Let them have it. 

Frank Steinwrote:

I think I mentioned this before, but there is nothing wrong with secret crags as long as they remain secret.

Let me give you an example of how not to do a secret crag. I am sure that most people are by now familiar with Roy bouldering (not a new Hueco!).

In the early to mid 1990s, a small group of New Mexico locals started to develop bouldering and even sport routes at Roy. By the early aughts, they lost interest, and the place saw very little traffic.

Then, another small group of local climbers started to explore Mills Canyon again. They decided to keep the place secret and strictly word of mouth.  However, they did have friends in Boulder that they shared the beta with. Soon pictures and videos of Roy bouldering were splattered all over social media, usually with a disclaimer that there “is a new Hueco” in Northern New Mexico, but sorry, “it is secret.”

Unfortunately, friends in Boulder brought other friends from Boulder, and the social media presence only grew. Even worse, because there was no beta out there, people who were not in the in-crowd, started to look for this “amazing” new bouldering area on their own, driving all over the rangeland, using Google Earth and clues from social media. Of course, this only pissed off the ranchers and the USFS, threatening closures to protect the grassland.

Fortunately, the conflict with the forest service was resolved, and the main areas remain accessible.

Eventually, one of the in-crowd wrote a guidebook, and all is now history.

I just wanted to say that this is the inaccurate gossip version of history. But then again if you were there you would have known.

To David, most people I know that prefer word of mouth just like smaller crowds and more time with friends. I don't hike all over the wilderness looking for cool new routes to impress you or for the community.

If you find it and can't handle the fact that I never posted it to the internet then you are happy to rename everything and take credit for our efforts. Don't care and not why I do it. I think I enjoy nature and climbing for the sake of more than you. And you sound rude and entitled. 

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

I'm encouraged. 5 years ago the mindless "Gatekeepers Bad!" chorus of noobs demanding free milk from a cow would have drowned out any sensible discussion. Progress!

I’m also heartened by the pushback. 

I like privacy and solitude. I like the feeling of solving unsolved puzzles on obscure rocks. I love and crave a feeling of adventure. I am under no obligation to share the things I do in the woods/wilderness with anyone. If I want to share, I can. If I don’t want to share, I don’t have to.

Knowing that there are people who feel obligated to share these places makes me even less inclined to share them when I find them.

thomas elliswrote:

I just wanted to say that this is the inaccurate gossip version of history. But then again if you were there you would have known.

To David, most people I know that prefer word of mouth just like smaller crowds and more time with friends. I don't hike all over the wilderness looking for cool new routes to impress you or for the community.

If you find it and can't handle the fact that I never posted it to the internet then you are happy to rename everything and take credit for our efforts. Don't care and not why I do it. I think I enjoy nature and climbing for the sake of more than you. And you sound rude and entitled. 

Just want to say that I’ve been around thirty-five years, and know the brothers who started putting in sport routes in the 90s. Another long-time local tried to drag me out there to boulder circa ‘98 or ‘99.

I just think that it is a little unfortunate how the place blew up. Also,I’m not really upset about the guidebook. The place already blew up by then, and the book at least kept people from driving all over the grassland. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Just want to say that I’ve been around thirty-five years, and know the brothers who started putting in sport routes in the 90s. Another long-time local tried to drag me out there to boulder circa ‘98 or ‘99.

I just think that it is a little unfortunate how the place blew up. Also,I’m not really upset about the guidebook. The place already blew up by then, and the book at least kept people from driving all over the grassland. 

I'm surprised I don't know you then because I know them too and the two routes they put up. We spoke about them back when. I'm sorry but you don't have the facts right but stay with  making shit up and going on hearsay. I've been climbing in New Mexico since 1992 and was directly involved in the events you speak of all the way through the guidebook. Again, never heard of you...

We’ve run into each other multiple times, Tom, but know each other by first name only, if that. You mostly boulder, and well, I don’t boulder much. I don’t do social media and don’t share my name on here for professional reasons. 

David Kwrote:

That was in reference to this:

It's a case in point of the stewards of a crag being totally unfit to steward a crag. If we're claiming that secrecy is good for crags, this is a pretty damning example of that being untrue. And I'll point out that I've seen this a bunch of times, particularly in the Adirondacks--Greg isn't the only one doing this bullshit.

Greg is open about the fact that he doesn't care about community and just wants a private playground. I suspect it's more common that people with secret crags think what they are doing benefits the community, but if they really were honest with themselves, they'd see that the only real benefits to secrecy are selfish.

Bro you seem mad as hell that’s a lot of typing lol 

Ok since the internet is new to you, using a fake name and putting out fake info is pretty weak. I don't have too much in any of this but really couldn't let that go. As a wise 8th grader once said "You don't have to lie to kick it!"

Everyone should persue climbing for their own reasons and treat eachothers choices with respect. 

Edit because of post limit!

To Dan

I think you're only a gatekeeper if you try and stop the flow of information once the word is out. Until then, you're just doing your own thing and I think that's allowed.

C Gwrote:

I like privacy and solitude. I like the feeling of solving unsolved puzzles on obscure rocks. I love and crave a feeling of adventure. I am under no obligation to share the things I do in the woods/wilderness with anyone. If I want to share, I can. If I don’t want to share, I don’t have to.

Knowing that there are people who feel obligated to share these places makes me even less inclined to share them when I find them.

I agree, you aren't "obligated" to share route info about the routes you climb/develop/FA.  The question is whether or not you're being a gatekeeper if you stumble upon a mecca of quality rock [with no access issues] and then refuse to share info and actively dissuade others from sharing info (implication being that somehow you own the rock)

Does anyone know the story of The Blue Diamond Cave in Vegas? Seems like it's exactly what were talking about here.

Honestly, with it's proximity to Red Rock, I can understand why the original developers might have been hush hush to avoid crowds when it rained on the sandstone.

Anyway, its on MP now...

(Ironically, I actually climbed there 7 or 8 years ago when it was "secret" but refrained from sharing it online)

(See Ricky's post below)

Dan Booklesswrote:

I agree, you aren't "obligated" to share route info about the routes you climb/develop/FA.  The question is whether or not you're being a gatekeeper if you stumble upon a mecca of quality rock [with no access issues] and then refuse to share info and actively dissuade others from sharing info (implication being that somehow you own the rock)

In the rare instance that an easy approach with a high concentration of good quality of climbs is found and developed you can rest easy in knowing it will become public at some point whether the developers like it or not. Let them enjoy their 5-20 years of it being an underground spot. 

Dan Booklesswrote:

I agree, you aren't "obligated" to share route info about the routes you climb/develop/FA.  The question is whether or not you're being a gatekeeper if you stumble upon a mecca of quality rock [with no access issues] and then refuse to share info and actively dissuade others from sharing info (implication being that somehow you own the rock)

It’s a tragedy of the commons scenario.

take a more finite resource as an example. There are many little hot springs out in the desert that get slammed with traffic because someone posts about it on Instagram. The mystery and joy of discovering such places is long gone. Instead of the surprise and excitement of discovery, it’s about where to find parking and navigate the crowds.

Nobody owns the rock on public land. But they do have agency over what happens to it. The more we publish these places, the more we chip away at the opportunity for mystery, discovery and adventure. That, in my mind, is a resource I prefer to protect when possible. Not all crags are candidates for that experience. Some really make more sense in the public sphere. But some don’t.

Sure, someone who stumbles across these places is allowed to share. But they remove the opportunity from others to “discover” them and also share in that experience of adventure.

I love developed areas. Don’t get me wrong. I enjoy the climbing. But the experience is different. And once a place is broadcast to the world, it’s hard to go back to what it was before. 

The snow/rain/cold that was keeping me from climbing has finally ended so I'm done semi-trolling here, but one last word from me:

Nobody is telling anyone that they're obliged to share information on MP or other social media. Nobody is claiming they're entitled to routes. The people making those accusations are just people who didn't bother to read my posts twisting things around so they can pretend to be the victim.

I'll also note that the people telling me to touch grass or claiming they like nature and climbing more than me, are just as much wasting time on an internet forum as I am. Posture away, noobs.