Deciding whether or not to share routes on Mountain Project. Gatekeeping?

If you wanna share something, go create something worth sharing.  

How do you hide a climbing area?  Or actively try to keep it secret??

David  mentions hanging mountain in Mass, how about  Farley? No book, no online guide, gatekept for a good reason or bad?

Ricky Harlinewrote:

I'm having a hard time understanding the service you're doing by publishing an area and then telling people to not go. Why not just wait until it's ready?

From the example of Hanging Mountain, mentioned above, climbers had the opportunity to purchase the previously private and officially off-limits crag. To purchase it required us to raise significant funds, which required publicity. However, because the area is in a legally-protected environmentally sensitive zone, we had to go through a stringent approval process through the State, which included surveys and establishing protected areas for certain endangered species ( including limitations on where we could establish routes) as well as developing parking, trails, and other infrastructure ( all of which required us to raise additional funds) before we had permission to open the cliff ( and only portions of it) to the public. So to move forward with this project we had to publicize it---and also place limitations on route development, before we were able to 'open' it. The realities of the 21st Century!!!

Concerning Farley, the lack of a guidebook or other published route information, is the direct result of the specific request of 2 private landowners who own a large percentage of the cliff face and boulders. They have, so far, been generous to allow us to walk and climb on their land ( though this hasn't always been the case in the past), but only as long as we comply with this requirement. It is, and has been, a very delicate situation, and the existence of 'pirate' online guides very much threatens this balance!!!

Alan Rubinwrote:

Concerning Farley, the lack of a guidebook or other published route information, is the direct result of the specific request of 2 private landowners who own a large percentage of the cliff face and boulders. They have, so far, been generous to allow us to walk and climb on their land ( though this hasn't always been the case in the past), but only as long as we comply with this requirement. It is, and has been, a very delicate situation, and the existence of 'pirate' online guides very much threatens this balance!!!

Interesting. After some of the recent hand-wringing about “secret” crags, the thought occurred of a climb management plan being simply “no publications”.  I hope we collectively don’t blow it at Farley.

I can think of several other northeast cliffs and boulder fields whose official management plan is 'keep it word of mouth', and they're all better for it.

However, if they have hard (yet accessible) enough climbs, they tend to be spoiled eventually by the proliferation of youtube send videos since those technically haven't been considered publication. Farley is kind of at this point now and, though I moved away a while ago, it's my impression things aren't going great on the crowding front (especially given the tenuous relationship with the neighbors).

The sort of person who only goes to the popular 'ex-secret' crags once there's sufficient online documentation also tends to be the sort of person who has no connection to the crag and is willing to push the limits of, for example, parking restrictions (or camping restrictions), since they've no context of what's at stake or the environment they've walked into. When a crag is just an outdoor place to go climbing, like you do in the gym, it's hard not to bring the gym mindset.

And call me exclusionary, but there's something to be said for the idea that an area doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. After 5-10 years as a local in the same area, that secret crag might be the only place to climb a new 5.XYz or vWhatever within a 3 hr drive.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

I'm having a hard time understanding the service you're doing by publishing an area and then telling people to not go. Why not just wait until it's ready?

Because that doesn't work, as evidenced by all the people on this thread who are butthurt someone sprayed about their secret crag.

If you want people to not go to a place, you're going to have to use your words like a big boy.

Alan Rubinwrote:

Concerning Farley, the lack of a guidebook or other published route information, is the direct result of the specific request of 2 private landowners who own a large percentage of the cliff face and boulders. They have, so far, been generous to allow us to walk and climb on their land ( though this hasn't always been the case in the past), but only as long as we comply with this requirement. It is, and has been, a very delicate situation, and the existence of 'pirate' online guides very much threatens this balance!!!

Note that I'm not encouraging online guides for places which aren't documented by request of the landowner--there's a big difference between "keep it secret" and "don't make a guide".

And as I've said before, MP might not be the best place to post information. But Farley certainly isn't a secret: it's got a page on the WMCC website.

MattHwrote:

The sort of person who only goes to the popular 'ex-secret' crags once there's sufficient online documentation also tends to be the sort of person who has no connection to the crag and is willing to push the limits of, for example, parking restrictions (or camping restrictions), since they've no context of what's at stake or the environment they've walked into. When a crag is just an outdoor place to go climbing, like you do in the gym, it's hard not to bring the gym mindset.

For all the elitism you're throwing around here, this is exactly the opposite of my experience. People who bolt in secret and demand you keep them secret so they can have a private playground, tend to think they own the place (even when they literally don't) and can do what they want. And as I said before: secret crags don't get trail days or cleanup days.

MattHwrote:

And call me exclusionary, but there's something to be said for the idea that an area doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. After 5-10 years as a local in the same area, that secret crag might be the only place to climb a new 5.XYz or vWhatever within a 3 hr drive.

True. A loss of something like that has much greater impact to a local than a non-local. 

Bill Lawrywrote:

Interesting. After some of the recent hand-wringing about “secret” crags, the thought occurred of a climb management plan being simply “no publications”.

That's how it works for canyoneering in the Wollemi region down here. Some watersheds are ok to publish guides, some are not.

They managed to keep the Wollemi pine location completely secret (there were less than 60 left) until they grew enough backup seedlings to start selling them as christmas trees, which is pretty impressive. When the scientists realised what they had found, they didn't even tell the original canyoneering party in case they decided to revisit the site or tell friends ("Oh yeah it's just some random subspecies with a really boring Latin name, no big deal") while internally freaking out because the plant version of Jurassic Park had just happened in real life.

David Kwrote:

And as I said before: secret crags don't get trail days or cleanup days.

Yet oddly enough they don't seem to need it as much. 

PWZwrote:

Yet oddly enough they don't seem to need it as much. 

That's not been my experience.

I've been to Apartment Boulders twice: the first time I hauled out a bag of trash and the second time I left because I was pissed off by the litter and not having a good time. And the litter isn't the only problem. This is an area with very tenuous access, because the gatekeepers aren't as good caretakers as they claim to be. Whichever mod keeps deleting my posts about Apartment Boulders: clearly your enforcing this secret isn't working.

Selfish people are selfish. The kind of person who selfishly tries to keep other people out so they can have a private playground, also doesn't tend to care about LNT, noise, etc.

The problem for small areas might be that the "in group" knows they can climb all the climbs in the area before their actions lead to access loss.

Greg Miller wrote:

I stopped sharing new routes and areas on here because I really don’t care about the “community” and like to have secluded crags for me and my like 3 friends, honestly. Half the dorks on here would complain about the approach, rock quality or the hardware not being stainless.

Case in point. Putting in non-stainless steel is vandalism--we know better.

David K wrote:

That's not been my experience.

I've been to Apartment Boulders twice: the first time I hauled out a bag of trash and the second time I left because I was pissed off by the litter and not having a good time. And the litter isn't the only problem. This is an area with very tenuous access, because the gatekeepers aren't as good caretakers as they claim to be. Whichever mod keeps deleting my posts about Apartment Boulders: clearly your enforcing this secret isn't working.

Selfish people are selfish. The kind of person who doesn't care about getting a real management plan for an area so that everyone can access it, also doesn't tend to care about LNT, noise, etc.

The problem for small areas might be that the "in group" knows they can climb all the climbs in the area before their actions lead to access loss.

That sounds  like a real shitshow. I find most bouldering areas to be similar honestly,  if it's not garbage it's illegal  parking,  trespassing, vegetation stomping, giant ticks or just  general gym behavior of not knowing what to do with no garbage cans or obnoxious music. 

I've  definitely changed my ways since I started climbing, I've gone from share everything to keeping quiet, it just makes more sense for myself and the future of the crag.

 I do remember when one of the climbing rags had an article on CragX in S Utah, people were going crazy that it was a secret. It was kinda funny and entertaining even,  I  don’t think the magazine ever did that again.

David, the apartment boulders are exactly the sort of 'ex-secret' area I was describing. There's a decade+ of beta videos, blog posts, insta posts, you name it. At this point, it's impossible to call it a secret area - it's just a 'bad access situation' crag, and this is exactly why spraying about areas that can't handle heavy traffic is shitty. What do you think the original developers should've done, if not keep it more of a secret than it became?

There's really two main categories of 'sustainably popular crags':

• It's on public land with established parking and other facilities
• The access fund (or a local affiliate like SCC or WMCC) buys it or negotiates an access agreement

Without one of those two, every crag worth anything is on the gradual trajectory towards closure, it's just a question of how quickly you get there. The more you can ensure that those accessing it are conscientious, the slower the process. Getting closed because of selfish users also makes the 1st option above harder to accomplish. Good luck negotiating an access agreement with the landowner who just saw a bunch of boulder bros screaming profanities, leaving their trash and stashing pads.

And, as a random aside, if we can agree that the effects of official 'word of mouth only' policies (instituted by the landowners/land managers) are beneficial for the crags they're imposed on, why can't we institute those policies ourselves?

Anyone who spends their time, energy and money developing a "secret crag" is only going to be more determined than ever to keep their crag secret after reading this thread. Smugly hurling insults at developers and threatening to expose secret crags is a poor strategy for convincing people to go public with their crags. I'm shocked at the level of aggrieved entitlement expressed here, and I've been here since 2006 watching this site slowly go downhill, so that's really saying something. 

bryanswrote:

Anyone who spends their time, energy and money developing a "secret crag" is only going to be more determined than ever to keep their crag secret after reading this thread. Smugly hurling insults at developers and threatening to expose secret crags is a poor strategy for convincing people to go public with their crags. I'm shocked at the level of aggrieved entitlement expressed here, and I've been here since 2006 watching this site slowly go downhill, so that's really saying something. 

"aggrieved entitlement" is affecting more than just this site IMO. I  agree otherwise. 

Anyone in this thread complaining that they cant find a local crag on the internet needs to touch grass. How did you climb before mountain project? Talk to people in the area - make friends, there are places all over the country that are off of mountain project with the explicit reasoning that folks don’t want bozos from god knows where bringing their dogs to a crag they know nothing about with iffy access.

just go to the red or a climbing gym or something 

I’m also tempted to say that something this annoying is probably just a troll I can’t wrap my mind around the idea of someone whining that they can’t find secret spots on the fucking internet lol

its not on mountain project dot com because they don’t want you there dude 

The outsourcing on Mountain Project is great, but I fully respect word-of-mouth areas. Screening is different from gatekeeping! Word of mouth allows for screening. I know someone who doesn't care at all about climbing, but wants TikTok videos. A group of them at the crag with loose rock would be dangerous and jeopardize access. What David said about talking to people, making friends—that's the climbing community. Not gatekeeping but showing people the ropes and looking out for one another AND protecting access. I've seen access lost due to lack of respect, and it's awful for locals. 

I’ve put a few rtes up here and there. If it’s at a area that’s already on MP then I always post it, pointless not too. There are some areas that we have not and the simple reasoning is that it’s nice to have somewhere to go that’s off the radar from the masses. If someone stumbles on to the crag and it gets out, then oh well that’s part of the game. I was lucky enough to be around to put some of the first routes up on the Grail in Mesquite for example. Kept that on the down low at the time but safe to say that’s well on the map now. We just move on to the next one, no big deal. I do feel sorry for the poor buggers in 10 years or more that want to put up new routes. Gonna be slim pickings, get after it!

MattHwrote:

David, the apartment boulders are exactly the sort of 'ex-secret' area I was describing. There's a decade+ of beta videos, blog posts, insta posts, you name it. At this point, it's impossible to call it a secret area - it's just a 'bad access situation' crag, and this is exactly why spraying about areas that can't handle heavy traffic is shitty. What do you think the original developers should've done, if not keep it more of a secret than it became?

Work out a real access plan with the landowners so that the current situation doesn't happen. Every "ex-secret" crag you can describe is an example of my point: secrecy doesn't work.

Without one of those two, every crag worth anything is on the gradual trajectory towards closure, it's just a question of how quickly you get there. The more you can ensure that those accessing it are conscientious, the slower the process. Getting closed because of selfish users also makes the 1st option above harder to accomplish. Good luck negotiating an access agreement with the landowner who just saw a bunch of boulder bros screaming profanities, leaving their trash and stashing pads.

I.e. good luck negotiating an access agreement with a landowner who just saw the people we're keeping the spot secret for? I.e. the people who are supposedly so much better at taking care of the land?

And, as a random aside, if we can agree that the effects of official 'word of mouth only' policies (instituted by the landowners/land managers) are beneficial for the crags they're imposed on, why can't we institute those policies ourselves?

I didn't agree to that.

If landowners request that we keep a crag word-of-mouth, we should do that, because highest priority is keeping the landowner happy. But that's not to say it's a good idea if we have other options. In most cases, secrecy wasn't the landowner's idea--it's an idea from climbers telling the landowner what has worked for other climbing areas as a way to provide a solution to the landowner's concerns. The unfortunate fact is it hasn't actually worked in other areas, so when it predictably doesn't work, it undermines the credibility of the climbers negotiating access.

It's also worth noting that instituting a secrecy policy without an agreement with a landowner generally involves keeping it secret from the landowner. Landowners understandably see keeping a secret from them as very different from keeping a secret from the general populace.

bryanswrote:

Anyone who spends their time, energy and money developing a "secret crag" is only going to be more determined than ever to keep their crag secret after reading this thread. Smugly hurling insults at developers and threatening to expose secret crags is a poor strategy for convincing people to go public with their crags. I'm shocked at the level of aggrieved entitlement expressed here, and I've been here since 2006 watching this site slowly go downhill, so that's really saying something. 

I haven't "hurled insults" at any developers, nor have I threatened to expose any secret crags. I'm not entitled to anything: if you want to develop a crag and tell no one, have at it. It's a dumb idea that doesn't achieve the goals you're saying it achieves, but have at it.

All the entitlement I'm seeing is from developers, some of whom apparently think that vandalizing a wall with bolts that leak rust all over the wall entitles them to my secrecy.

David Eisenstadtwrote:

Anyone in this thread complaining that they cant find a local crag on the internet needs to touch grass.

I'm not seeing anyone complaining they can't find a local crag on the internet.

I think I mentioned this before, but there is nothing wrong with secret crags as long as they remain secret.

Let me give you an example of how not to do a secret crag. I am sure that most people are by now familiar with Roy bouldering (not a new Hueco!).

In the early to mid 1990s, a small group of New Mexico locals started to develop bouldering and even sport routes at Roy. By the early aughts, they lost interest, and the place saw very little traffic.

Then, another small group of local climbers started to explore Mills Canyon again. They decided to keep the place secret and strictly word of mouth.  However, they did have friends in Boulder that they shared the beta with. Soon pictures and videos of Roy bouldering were splattered all over social media, usually with a disclaimer that there “is a new Hueco” in Northern New Mexico, but sorry, “it is secret.”

Unfortunately, friends in Boulder brought other friends from Boulder, and the social media presence only grew. Even worse, because there was no beta out there, people who were not in the in-crowd, started to look for this “amazing” new bouldering area on their own, driving all over the rangeland, using Google Earth and clues from social media. Of course, this only pissed off the ranchers and the USFS, threatening closures to protect the grassland.

Fortunately, the conflict with the forest service was resolved, and the main areas remain accessible.

Eventually, one of the in-crowd wrote a guidebook, and all is now history.