Deciding whether or not to share routes on Mountain Project. Gatekeeping?

Sam Rootwrote:

What are your guys thoughts on sharing those little "secret" areas onto Mountain Project? I recently moved to an area where it took me quite some time to start climbing the routes and styles that I enjoy because people are very tight lipped surrounding them. I have so much fun on them, and they are usually difficult enough to access that they will never become "crowded" by any definition. It kind of feels like a few butt buddies that don't want anybody at their private spot.

All of that to say, why do people feel the need to keep areas secret? If anything, you'll meeting minded people at the area. We aren't talking about top roping sport climbs. More of the ice/mixed/traditional climbing community.

Curious to hear thoughts.

This. 

Not pointing fingers at you specifically, you asked nicely, after all, lol, but....

Do you (talking about anyone, now) know anything about the local areas? The issues? The traditions? Even the simple (and not so simple) facts about this new to you place? No?

Almost every single place near here?

Does indeed have access issues, or access/management is complex. This includes the Black Cliffs, Table rock, and even City of Rocks. Public land does not mean anything goes, far from it. The easiest way to "manage" public land?

Just say no. Period. End of sentence.

As to "gatekeeping" being defined as not posting/publishing much info?

Not necessarily. There are at least 2 reasonably well known,  fun bolted sport places in Idaho, that are purposely left with not much info out there, because the early developers decided it was simply more fun. And it is! There are precious few opportunities to climb this way.

Re ice climbing? Seriously???

First, there's a tiny but active number of ice climbers here. Second, this isn't Hyalite or Cody or Ouray, or....

Ice is very hit and miss here. If that's your thing, then hopefully you grasp that it's dicey, for starters, so people quite rightfully are picky who they choose to endanger their lives with. Make friends, be a solid, respectful, reliable partner, and maybe, just maybe you might earn a place with the people who climb ice here.

You will need those people. Ice shows up hit and miss, and might literally only be there that morning....and melt while you're packing up.your ropes. You also have a real commitment to even go take a look see, for some of it. And yeah, people are picky about partners.

If that's "gatekeeping", I'm all for it. I prefer my ice climbing friends at least sorta safe, and being out with people who are solid is a huge part of that.

@Deven, plenty here climb the Black Cliffs, lol. We simply don't have a huge climbing population, even with a bazillion noobs moving here. Plus, it has a shorter season than one would expect, because it is next to impossible climbing when that basalt gets heated up. Nice temps, on a weekend? You'll usually have some company. 

And I'm in the "Black Cliffs sucks" category. But I'm 4'11", plus a piss poor climber, so the place is actually pretty dangerous old school bolting, for me.

Best, Helen

David W.A.wrote:

Jake jones. A real twat of the web!  Good work being a great contributor to the conversation and highlighting why the MP forums are garbage. Really just proved the whole point of the convo…Right after a nice comment about progress.

Some people only feel good about themselves when they are able to tear down others.

I have to say, as a troll, this thread scares me

Marc801 Cwrote:

Some people only feel good about themselves when they are able to tear down others.

I’m not really sure if you are talking about me or the guy derailing the whole convo with dickish non contributory remarks to an otherwise productive conversation. If you are talking about me, I am sorry, tearing anyone down is not my desire. I do feel frustrated by a conversation that gets steamrolled by trolls.  As I said, major issue with MP forums (the internet perhaps)…

this is also a topic I feel needs to be discussed because since the gain in popularity of MP I’ve watched how different the effect of MP info is on climbing and climbing areas compared to guidebooks.

There is a saying:  act like an asshole, get treated like an asshole. 

No one is entitled to Beta.  Yes the land is public but that just means you are free to go out and find the walls/boulders yourself.

BUT development can be hard work.  I have a hard time rationalizing putting in a lot of effort just to keep it to myself.  I have benefited greatly in my life from guidebooks and mountainproject beta.  Responsible sharing is a way of giving back.

do whatever u want  put it on mp or not but there are consequences if u do

for background look at the list of first ascents 

https://www.fadb.app

dude from colorado springs guy number 5 on the list david lilliott has developed more than 100 routes with his own money and has nothing on mp why? because they close cliffs to bird nesting if u post on mp whether birds nest or not?!?!

developing a whole area? or whole wall? 

make a pdf sell it online as a brochure 

Sam Rootwrote:

What are your guys thoughts on sharing those little "secret" areas

 It kind of feels like a few butt buddies that don't want anybody at their private spot.

If anything, you'll meeting minded people at the area.

Curious to hear thoughts.

I think there are websites for this kind of thing. To help you find like minded people...

Eternal Gumbywrote:

I think there are websites for this kind of thing. To help you find like minded people...

Craiglist Missed Connections?

Colonel Mustardwrote:

Well played!

Colonic diversions are no fun, so I too recommend having a functioning butt.

Sir Mix-a-Lot’s anaconda agrees.

nbrownwrote:

Some people are simply fed up with online crybabies nitpicking everything to death. For me, not posting is a way of reciprocating. 

Amen to this.

Meh - I’ve posted a fair number of climbs on MP, the vast majority from my working out directions in an old sketch-y guidebook.  I have only had a couple complaints about my descriptions that I recall.

One was justified which I gladly corrected. 

The other was one where I’d only posted comments to a guide book’s description and was explicit about that - support your guide book authors and all that.  And then a friend showed up at the base of the climb with partner thinking he’d just open MP and follow the directions. They still climbed even though at the start they saw the whole route was not described. Boy o boy did they have an adventurous day.

Still, my experience is with posting mostly multi-pitch routes. Maybe sport climbers have different standards? 

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

It would likely be a complete betrayal to those who finally brought you to those areas. 

If you didnt develop them, theyre not your areas to share.  

Stileswrote:

If you didnt develop them, theyre not your areas to share.  

Nothing about screwing some bolts into a wall makes it "your area". This is exactly the elitist bullshit I'm against.

Of course nobody has an obligation to post to MP or anywhere else, but if you're actively working to hide information from other people, that's what I'm calling gatekeeping.

As someone who has contributed a few things to this website, and also as someone who has developed several areas with my own hard work and sweat that I keep off this site,  I find this thread interesting.

I have seen the direct effects of posting routes on here. The once quiet and lonesome areas are lost to the past. Posting routes in the past was once a way to share and give back. But now sharing can endanger an area. With the rise in popularity of climbing (thanks Jimmy and Alex) we are seeing record numbers of people in an area on any given weekend.

I say gatekeep to your hearts content if you’re the one doing the hard work and shelling out your own money. You don’t owe anyone any info about anything. 

David Kwrote:

Nothing about screwing some bolts into a wall makes it "your area". This is exactly the elitist bullshit I'm against.

Of course nobody has an obligation to post to MP or anywhere else, but if you're actively working to hide information from other people, that's what I'm calling gatekeeping.

I'm very anti-gatekeeping and think many of the secret areas that people don't want posted near me are being overly concerned about the supposed impact. Emigrant Wall is in an area with lots of secret climbing and it has "blown up" for the area, but it still usually only sees 4-10 parties a weekend at peak season. So I just don't see the evidence that all these secret areas need to stay secret. 

However, there are some areas that are gems that absolutely would blow up. And it's not like these areas are hard to get the info-- start climbing at some of the public spots, learn who's in the community and ask them about the spots you want to go to. 

This is a different sort of gate keeping, wherein access is granted but in such a way that it prevents over use. 

These two types of gatekeeping are not the same and should not be considered the same. The first I dislike, the second I strongly agree with. 

And I'd just like to re-iterate that my position on these areas regardless of whether or not I agree with the reasoning of the developers is that I don't talk about them even though I often find it to be silly. I feel if I've been invited to an off the proj crag that it would be a betrayal to even talk about it, as it isn't even my place to share these areas unless I have been specifically invited to do so, and I certainly wouldn't publish such areas online. Y'all do you, but this is a good way of doing things. 

David Kwrote:

Nothing about screwing some bolts into a wall makes it "your area". This is exactly the elitist bullshit I'm against.

Of course nobody has an obligation to post to MP or anywhere else, but if you're actively working to hide information from other people, that's what I'm calling gatekeeping.

AGREED!

David Kwrote:

Nothing about screwing some bolts into a wall makes it "your area". 

This an overlooked and ignored truth and the reason secrecy is valuable.  Just like high school, word spreads fast and once the secret is out one’s special shared information is just everyone’s old news and one isn’t special anymore. 

David Kwrote:

Nothing about screwing some bolts into a wall makes it "your area". This is exactly the elitist bullshit I'm against.

Of course nobody has an obligation to post to MP or anywhere else, but if you're actively working to hide information from other people, that's what I'm calling gatekeeping.

They have the same tools to find the place as the original party who actually put effort in

Tyler Phillipswrote:

As someone who has contributed a few things to this website, and also as someone who has developed several areas with my own hard work and sweat that I keep off this site,  I find this thread interesting.

I have seen the direct effects of posting routes on here. The once quiet and lonesome areas are lost to the past. Posting routes in the past was once a way to share and give back. But now sharing can endanger an area. With the rise in popularity of climbing (thanks Jimmy and Alex) we are seeing record numbers of people in an area on any given weekend.

I say gatekeep to your hearts content if you’re the one doing the hard work and shelling out your own money. You don’t owe anyone any info about anything. 

Agreed!  You dont owe anyone anything. 

however, if I stumble upon your "private" crag on public land, I will 100 percent spray about it with utter disregard (because I don't owe you anything)