Deciding whether or not to share routes on Mountain Project. Gatekeeping?

most people I know do, in fact, have butts. 

David W.A.wrote:

most people I know do, in fact, have butts. 

Well played!

Colonic diversions are no fun, so I too recommend having a functioning butt.

Rob Dillonwrote:

Let’s imagine there’s a bit more grey area in between the poles of selfish, in-group secrecy and the ideal that all information wants to be free for everyone everywhere:

If I have structured my life in order to have the resources – free time, research, vehicles, fitness, gear etc. – to seek out unexplored climbing areas, and you haven’t, why am I under some obligation to immediately fill you in on that?  You are equally free to do your own legwork.  I am free to share, or not.  If you run into me somewhere, and you ask, I’ll probably tell you all about it. This is not the same as granting 6.5 billion humans instant access to this information. Relationships still matter.

I think this is an excellent point. I used to fall more in line with the “secrets crags are gatekeeping” camp, but after spending some time on my own looking actually looking for secret stuff, it’s shocking how easy they are to find. There is so much free information available online to aid in looking for cliffs (USGS data, KyFromAbove, ArcGIS Earth, etc) that there’s really no excuse somebody can’t find them on their own- aside from not trying at all. I feel no obligation to help someone that doesn’t make any effort to help themselves. If that makes me a gatekeeeping asshole, then that’s what I am I suppose

George Perkins wrote:

Exaggerating or fictionalizing the "access issues" is perhaps the most commonly used gatekeeping trope.  

David K wrote:

You're not some sort of access activist because you maintained access for your little clique. "Access" in a sense that anyone else cares about is "access for everyone".

These are all very good points based off of what I said, and I have two separate thoughts. 

First is that I think my main thesis was really somewhat separate from OP's question. My main point was simply that I believe if you are developing an area for others to come climb there (not just for your own enjoyment), you have a responsibility to ensure you have permission and consider things like long term access, trails, and parking before making it public. Publishing something online is a major step and means that more people will come. I think these things need to be properly thought through before that step happens. Additionally, if you do not have permission or do not think you can secure long term access to an area, don't develop it!

As far as answering OP's question more directly, it's hard to say. The areas I personally know of that are "secret" are usually the ones that were developed without going through the proper channels or considering these impact factors. They are often secret because they probably should not have been developed in the first place, so I also think they should not be published online and make the problem worse. Even if that means an "exclusive" group gets to maintain their proper access and others do not, I don't mind too much.

I agree that access issues can be a gatekeeping trope, but like others pointed out it really is the case that sometimes private landowners turn a blind eye to small groups of climbers, and get unhappy when lots more people start showing up (before you publish something talk to the landowners). Or locally here we have a crag that has legal access but for only a few weeks a year, and a long history of climbers trying to circumvent that restriction through neighboring private property has limited access even more. Do I think that publishing this area with explicit instructions around access would push more climbers to access it at the appropriate time? Maybe, but it is hard to say and honestly it was developed and secreted long before I moved here, I do not think it is my place to rock the boat. I just know that when I am considering developing something new, I try and do it correctly.

Dan Booklesswrote:

It's Gatekeeping.  

Its public land and belongs to all of us.  Route/crag Development isn't altruistic, it's self-serving.  You have every right to the cliff and can spray about it online even if the developers don't want you to.  you can even add bolts if you want.  ROCK AND ICE BELONG TO US ALL.  

(caveat: god bless good hearted route-developers)

I agree with your statement in spirit but not necessarily in the way you are describing. The idea of public land is that it is held in common. Areas belong to the communities that use them. In practice that means the local community. So, no you cant unilaterally decide to change an aspect of a piece of public land (ie adding bolts to an already established climb or publicly posting a less well know area) without the consent of the community that uses that area. As someone who started climbing in the northeast. I have watched many areas become completely unusable because of increased visibility to larger amounts of people, so I completely understand the impulse of some communities keeping some local crags on the downlow. Any of these decisions should be made with input of the people who showed you the area and the people who developed the area, as well as other folks who use it often. The Kind of "public ownership" that you are describing Dan leads to a kind of "wild west" individualism that causes people to do shitty things in the name of there personal ethics against the wishes of the majority of the community. For my New England folks, think about that dude who decided to chop bolts at very popular sport crags across MA and NH because his "Personal Ethic" dictated that bolting sport climbs was bad. 

Gatekeeping is just tough love for kooks.

Why in the world would I want to give up the location to an areas Ive spent years developing and spent thousands of dollars on hardware on?  I don't think its unreasonable to want to only share with a handful of friends.  Who wouldn't like having their own secret spot?  If by chance it becomes discovered by someone else I can't help what they might choose to disclose but would hope they would also appreciate a nice uncrowded unspoiled spot and keep it on the DL.

I wonder how many of the entitled posting here are capitalists who would viciously defend the non-disclosure of their company’s trade secrets.

Bill Lawrywrote:

I wonder how many of the entitled posting here are capitalists who would viciously defend the non-disclosure of their company’s trade secrets.

Exactly…knowledge is valuable.  People claiming information should be free either want to steal it or fail to understand or care how they pay for the ‘free’ information.  

Now, now - Dutton was a crime boss.  ;)

C Lwrote:

. The Kind of "public ownership" that you are describing Dan leads to a kind of "wild west" individualism that causes people to do shitty things in the name of there personal ethics against the wishes of the majority of the community. 

I'm mostly just being hyperbolic. Just want to make the point that route developers don't own the rock.

People truly believe if they are the first ones to set eyes on a cliff and sink a bolt and red tag it, suddenly it belongs to them, and I NEED their permission to climb there or develop there or share info about the area. 

George Perkins wrote:

On occasion this might lead to more problems.  All of these can happen when a person hears the spray, asks for directions/info and gets no reply or otherwise blown off, so they find it on Google Earth and they go anyway:

(1) Park in the wrong place. (2) Unknowingly trespass across private land. (3) Not find the approach trail and cause more erosion. (4) Climb on the cliff you saw raptors nesting on, having no idea. (5) Accidentally send your unfinished project that you didn't put an actual red tag on, that they would have otherwise stayed off of. (6) They tell their friends about it with little discretion, because they feel no obligation to keep it secret.

I've been a part of, or heard of, each of these happening.

I don’t know, George. What is the difference between that and an FA-ist?  I guess the former made some bad decisions based on some sketchy information whereas the later had no information and came fully prepared? Or the latter suffered the same?

My tomato vs your tomatillo?

Sam Rootwrote:

What are your guys thoughts on sharing those little "secret" areas onto Mountain Project? I recently moved to an area where it took me quite some time to start climbing the routes and styles that I enjoy because people are very tight lipped surrounding them. I have so much fun on them, and they are usually difficult enough to access that they will never become "crowded" by any definition. It kind of feels like a few butt buddies that don't want anybody at their private spot.

All of that to say, why do people feel the need to keep areas secret? If anything, you'll meeting minded people at the area. We aren't talking about top roping sport climbs. More of the ice/mixed/traditional climbing community.

Curious to hear thoughts.

I don’t know many spots in Idaho where people are trying to gate keep I think the beta is pretty free flowing and pretty accessible most folks want you to climb their route to clean them up just like a lot of places in Washington people beg you to climb their routes or else they will be taken back by nature.

Most the things I’ve seen in Idaho not published just like grug g said, they just thought nobody would go out of their way to climb it. Just look at the black cliffs pretty good crack and sport climbing really close to town, but hardly anyone really climbs there.(And just complain about the climbing there even though it really good basalt) They probably just didn’t think anyone would want to climb it.

Even in area that people think are very tight lipped places like North Carolina I’ve just asked people beta on places and they give me old out of print guide books that the author just didn’t bother to update because not that many Carolinians  ( population to route concentration) go out and climbs the routes really.

I’ve also come to find gate keepy areas usually have lots of information it’s just people in those areas usually act like it’s a super exclusive club because usually they grew up in a country club kinda environment. That Teton style baby!

Noah Betzwrote:

I think this is an excellent point. I used to fall more in line with the “secrets crags are gatekeeping” camp, but after spending some time on my own looking actually looking for secret stuff, it’s shocking how easy they are to find. There is so much free information available online to aid in looking for cliffs (USGS data, KyFromAbove, ArcGIS Earth, etc) that there’s really no excuse somebody can’t find them on their own- aside from not trying at all. I feel no obligation to help someone that doesn’t make any effort to help themselves. If that makes me a gatekeeeping asshole, then that’s what I am I suppose

There’s a huge group of climbers whose life has other obligations other than exploring endless cliff lines of sandstone in the red and foxtown Ky. For a lot of people climbing is their outlet or 6 hours of free time per month from work, community obligations, wife kids etc. I don’t believe anyone who is putting in the hard work and miles owes anyone anything but there is definitely a community in ky that loves to spray all over the internet but not share any locations. Even things that have been uploaded on the red river climbing app for a looong time but no directions, waypoints or descriptions added. Just another form of spray and keep secret. I agree with a comment made earlier in this thread. As a developer you don’t own anyone anything but don’t spray your happy little butt off about all the secrets v10 fa’s you do if your not willing to let other people outside your group go try them. 

I think the original question of this post is a valid concern. It’s too easy to share information these days and it’s shared with the entire world. Just for the environments sake, I say keep new crags to yourself/off the internet. Word of mouth with trickle out. 

I'm encouraged. 5 years ago the mindless "Gatekeepers Bad!" chorus of noobs demanding free milk from a cow would have drowned out any sensible discussion. Progress!

Post everything. Bolt what you want. Add a bolt if you feel like it. Who owns it? You do! So where is this crag?