New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #27

C Miller wrote:

Phylp - 1979 Wolfe guidebook

Thanks.  I don't recall ever owning that guidebook, it may have been my partner's.

This will seem like sacrilege to the guidebook keepers, but I often give old guidebooks away, usually to visiting climbers, when I get newer versions of them.  Before I moved down here 10 years ago, I actually sold a bunch of old guidebooks on Amazon. I just wanted them to go to a good home. Now if I can only find someone who wants the 4 old tuber belay devices sitting in my gear box...I can't bring myself to throw that nice metal away.

Guy. I had a 71 MGB the summer I graduated high school. sold it before winter hit. Super cool car. 

 felt the need to feed the rat. went winter hiking up in smuggs.  I did this loop

for some reason its usually feels like a real solo. Once every 5 years or so I get on it in perfect conditions and its casual but usually it feels like the real deal. Today was no exception.

I start by skiing up to the top of the pass and stashing my skies. As soon as I headed up from there the weather kicked in. 

I lucked out and some bad assed skiers booted the trail right to the start of the climb for me. 

This is where they go down and I go up. 

60m of ice choked chimney and you get this  view.

Just steep snow trudgeing up to the next chimney but its not the kind of slope you have a great chance of self arresting on if you blow the next crux so the exposure gets real. 

Nothing like a grade 5 move on a grade 3 climb ;) 

This was actually really interesting . The feet where non existent and you had to do a massive high step to get established on the headwall and the parasol was in your face making the whole situation feel pretty darn steep. Right then I somehow managed to knock off a toaster sized hunk of ice that banged up my left forearm pretty good and ended up on my chest. Then is the move to get it off your chest without having it floss your feet off the ice. A bit sporty there for a few seconds. I was rather relieved to be able to clip into this anchor 20ft above the headwall. 

It was really snowing and blowing. Lots of choices from here. I went up the middle of the right side. 

this is about all I saw until I got to the belay tree. 

One decent powder slough that went over my head and down the back of my neck. Feeling a bit worked by the time I got to the anchor.

Took a good breather and then tackled the last do or fly crux. A steep overhanging boulder  move to the top of the ridge. Fortunately it has great Turf sticks to facilitate pulling over the lip.  I ran into two kids from Colorado who were looking for the allusive rappel route. I got us to the cave in short order

Wrapped their rope around that pillar, shucked my pack and crawled out bas akwards. Rather difficult  and not very graceful maneuver.

out pops a kid

the light was beautifull

two more rappels, a bunch of down climbing and butt sliding got us to the road and my skis. Skied back to the truck by headlamp. 

feeling a bit tuckered.... 

Don't get old.... 

 

 

Nick - impressive day! I trust the Rat is stuffed.

Lori so your going to wave off knee PT?
If you really want to know about knee structure go cook up a mess of pork hock and beans using a whole hock. When it time to cut the meat from the bone- study the structure- find the meniscus. The patella, the tendons that cross each other. Quite complex. Good luck with it.

Been gone for most of the week for work.  So cool Lori that you got to visit with Dave.  He looks great!  I think the last climb he established before I came along was R.A.F. with Alan Winter.  Alan was Dave's partner at the time and claimed to be a first class second, but since his climbing limit was 5.9 and he didn't lead I easily and quickly replaced him as Dave's real first class second.  When Fire's came out, Dave was pretty budget minded and bought some CS Special shoes (not PC, but Chink Shoe Special) that were copies of Fire's made in China.  How he could climb in them was not obvious since they might have been even worse than EBs.  The last time I climbed with Dave was the weekend of the Stonemaster reuinion at KPs and he was still climbing well in those CS Specials.

For me, Fire's were not very good.  I was an edger and they didn't edge for shit.  When Mairacher's came out - a shoe that would edge and had sticky rubber - I was much happier.  Funny that later I ended up climbing primarily in slippers for a few years.  My favorite shoe of all time were the Sportiva Tao's.  Just wide enough to fit my fat feet into and they were light and edged really well.  Too bad they were black and would completely cook your feet on a warm day!  When I did the B&Y some years ago, I did the route in a pair of Tao's I bought from Roy McClanahan a couple years before.  They are one of my prized possessions that I will never get rid of.

My take (and memories) about shoes also do not relegate sticky rubber to some revolutionary status. When I started climbing at Devil's Lake a stiff shoe seemed like the right option, which meant first Zillertals and then Spiders. Kronhofers seemed way too soft for steep slick edging. At some point in the early sixties, I "discovered" RD's from an ad in the French magazine Alpinisme. I ordered them from, I think Aux Vieux Campeur but maybe direct from Galibier. I remember they cost me $15, but that does seem incredible now, especially considering the quite heavy leather upper. I thought I was the first and only person in North America to use RD's, but I've heard from other folks out West that they happened upon them as well. In any case, I may have popularized them back East---they were well-suited to Shawangunk climbing.

Their roots going back to Converse sneakers notwithstanding, Gunks climbers were mostly partial to stiff shoes. RD's fit the bill well; they had a full-length metal shank. And yet, even stiffer varieties had at least a few moments in the sun, boots made by Chouindard and Robbins and some other models were pretty popular for a while. EB's showed up later than RD's and got quite a following, in spite of not being particularly distinguished in any way, having truly miserable durability of their uppers, and being unpleasantly sweaty. Quite a variety of EB knock-offs appeared, PA's being one but there where several other models that were mostly marginally better either in terms of the last and almost always in terms of the upper.

And then Bachar discovered sticky rubber and brought Fire's to market. This has been described as a revolution, and maybe it was for folks doing hard slab climbing, but all I noticed was a relatively small improvement in adhesion. Mind you, my climbing was in the Gunks, Eldorado, SD Needles, Tetons, Wind Rivers, Bugaboos and Yosemite, and I wasn't trying to master hard slab routes in any of those places. I tried Fire's, but they were too wide for my feet and to flexible for my style---I thought they sucked for edging. So I carried on with other shoes until everyone started producing sticky rubber. Around the same time, manufacturers started experimenting with different types of lasts---slip rather than board lasting, for example, which ushered in today's no-socks convention---and various types of asymmetry and down-turning. Some of this was in response to the demands of overhanging climbing, but a lot had to do with recovering, by way of fit, the stiffness that had been sacrificed by transitioning from board lasting. We got some of the advantages of stiffness without having to give up as much smearing ability.

So for me there was no before-and-after-sticky-rubber, not if that is supposed to mean anything revolutionary. This is not to say that sticky rubber didn't have beneficial effects. I think one of the main benefits has turned out to be the ability to pivot on weighted holds, a tactic that underpins all kinds of back-stepping and foot-changing maneuvers. With the old hard rubber, moving your foot while weighting it was likely to blow it off the hold. Now we have far more latitude to adjust body position.

Before everything: Solda's (only available at Camp and Trails NYC). 

RD's

EB's and Kronhofers

Reinforced EB's

Something else...

Something else...

Robbins Shoes

I'm late to the party but I cant resist posting some shoe pics.

Red PAs on "Three Birches," a granite layback slab on Cathedral Ledge in NH. Note the butt clenched in my teeth for courage. Ca. 1974

EBs on "Rewritten" in Eldo a few years later. Were the Neptune-sewn, leather-reinforced uppers a Colorado thing? I don't see them in any of the other EB pics here.

I don’t mean to gush, but… What a crowd here! And what an education.

Jan, thank you so much. I know it got a little goofy, my girl crush on dave’s routes, and they’re really Jan and Dave’s routes, a lot of them. But what a way to get introduced to this place and to catch the fire of Joshua Tree climbing. I am just so grateful to you guys. Also, I did not know that story about CS special. I think it was Todd Gordon who said it was “chickenshit special”. A lot of assumptions made about EbGBs as well and apparently that name was a little more irreverent.  

I’m still missing some important information on shoe rubber.  Was it not Charles Cole who was the genius behind sticky rubber? At any rate, rgold’s observations are really insightful – – that the need for this perfect sticky rubber was probably the game changer for steep slab, but maybe not other kinds of Climbing. Man, I love those pictures!

Here inJoshua Tree there’s a whole science to making it up these near vertical routes. The rock has to be a perfect temperature of 48° or less.  You have to clean the bottom of your shoes until they squeak and then do not step on that dirt before you climb. And literally keep cleaning the soles of your shoes all the way up the route. 

It took me a while to find TC pros which fit great and smear Great. Of course they wouldn’t work in the gym. But I’ve been thinking about edging and wondering if another pair of shoes would be better. How do you know? I am thinking about those dime thin edges that are on a lot of the formations here and wondering what the problem is when my feet cave. Is it ankle strength or foot strength or is it the wrong kind of shoes for edging?  

I was thinking it could be weight related, but here is a picture of Jeremy Schoenborn, who couldn’t be more relaxed at the start of run for your life. He’s tall and so I assume he weighs a little bit. So maybe it also goes back to trust and faith?  What magical skill allows him to hang out like that all day?

He had not yet clipped the first bolt so if his foot had slipped off that edge while he’s loitering there that would’ve been a hard belly scraper and a solid five or 6 foot bounce. He did not seem worried about that in the least.

Guy, now I’m supposed to dissect a pig? You asked if I was forgoing physical therapy. Absolutely not! My mantra is “E“, all of the above. But that pineapple juice has been kind of shocking. I think it has to be fresh squeezed to preserve those enzymes. I have also scheduled an appointment With Esther Smith. I will take any and all advice at this point. I have learned my lesson. I have to be stronger. My knees feel healed, but I know it’ll happen again unless I take measures.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

 I did this loop

Don't get old.... 

 

 

Damn Nick! That is a badass day out in Vermont in the winter for anyone - let alone an old dude. Much respect and great pics. Malama pono out there.

Lori - One of these days you're going to surprise all of us and learn to read a guide book! The photo of the wall near the Ranger Station alongside Lost Horse Road is, wait for it..., Lost Horse Ranger Station Wall! There are a few good routes up there (and some dogs as well). Bush Crack, 5.7 is one of my favorites. Right next to it is Barbara Bush, 5.10b, a friction face you'd probably like. Also, there is Hercules, a 5.11 crack climb, very steep and, to me, very intimidating looking climb.

Jan's story has reminded me that 40 years ago some people found it acceptable to use a derogatory racial slur, and that today, some people still find it acceptable to use it to enhance the telling of a story. Sad and disappointing.

My BITD {72-82} shoe progression;

PA's, RD's, Robbins Yosemite boot, EB's, Robbins Varappe shoe, and Lowa Alpspitz Mountain boots.

Although they climbed better than other models, the EB's toe box was narrower and for me too uncomfortable.

Had to go to the Doctor for both big toes having painful ingrown nails. 

Doc takes a look at them, then ask's me, "Are your shoes too tight?"

Told him, "Only the ones I climb in." LOL 

So, he cuts away some excess tissue, trims the nails and tells me, " Give the climbing a rest for a while and get better fitting climbing shoes".    

If you haven’t read it already, the “History of Fire climbing shoes” thread on ST, with JB weighing in, might be of interest:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=232807&tn=0&mr=0

and

“Gear History what did EB stand for?”

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=948137&tn=0&mr=0

edit - Malcolm Daly’s story about the injured semi-conscious climber imploring the EMTs NOT to cut off his Fires is wild…

Nick, damn impressive. So cool.  What a day out by yourself.  Love the wild weather and adventure.  Thanks for the story and pics.

Todd Berlier wrote:

thank you phylp for calling this out, i missed it.

i find it more offensive that its couched in the often dropped this isnt PC, as if one's willingness to be offensive and racist is somehow the readers problem. on some level it is, as it gives me a fair amount of disappointnent that this exists from folks old enough to know better, but still fail at adequate self reflection.

If you lobby hard enough I bet you could get the route C.S. Special redacted.  

Lori and Nick’s adventure pics got me motivated to get off my butt and go for a ride during a semi-lull today before the wind returns in force tonight from the west. There could be sea ice movement with this blow. Gnarly. The sun reeeeally wanted to come up and play with the moon but that won’t happen until next week. There are a couple caribou in the second pic. Their life in constant windchill is hard to fathom. 

Colden, I find beauty in empty spaces. lots of folks have told me that they hate driving through eastern Alberta and Saskatchewan

because they find it boring. I love that kind of stuff. The climbing route I did yesterday is easy grade 3 but thats just a number. The changing  conditions, weather, location and different variations make for engaging climbing INMOP. The finish that I do to gain the ridge is probobly M4 in its curent condition. A friend of mine who is young and a real climber did that same solo loop a few weeks ago and said it was spicy. If a guy like that calls something spicy chances are darn good it will blow your hair back ;) 

Brandt Allenwrote:

Lori - One of these days you're going to surprise all of us and learn to read a guide book! The photo of the wall near the Ranger Station alongside Lost Horse Road is, wait for it..., Lost Horse Ranger Station Wall! There are a few good routes up there (and some dogs as well). Bush Crack, 5.7 is one of my favorites. Right next to it is Barbara Bush, 5.10b, a friction face you'd probably like. Also, there is Hercules, a 5.11 crack climb, very steep and, to me, very intimidating looking climb.

Not to have a thin skin, and I appreciate your input.  But for the last few years, I roam... without a guide book usually.  I'm not looking for routes, I'm just looking. I always have a general idea of where I am, but may not have checked out a specific route/rock.  I take pictures.  I see what I see.  As long as I stay within a mile or so of my car, I'm pretty carefree. And then, when I get home, I look it up in any number of guidebooks, or on MP.  If I REALLY can't find something, I ask.

If it looks like it has promise, I may post a picture here...  I appreciate the firsthand experience of many of these routes.  It's a little more personal than looking up beta in guidebooks.  

It's been awhile since I truly didn't know what I was looking at.  However, it happened this weekend when I saw a rock pile and a stunning rock, and couldn't figure it out in any of the guidebooks or on MP.  Maybe for this, I could be using coordinates.  I finally asked Bob.  Question answered, it was Bush Dome, and the route was Ambush.  If it's truly annoying, just keep on scrolling!  

Brandt Allenwrote:

...Also, there is Hercules, a 5.11 crack climb, very steep and, to me, very intimidating looking climb.

IMO Hercules is one of the more physical 5.11's in Joshua Tree. My hands are a little on the thin side, and I always found it far more difficult than some of the other classic 5.11's including More Monkey Than Funky and Hot Rocks.

Just got lead certified at Rockreation when we just happened to be down in Costa Mesa.

The climbs kicked my butt. I was reserving a bit for tomorrow… but it was hard. Going to have to get up into the 12s before crossing to this gym and outdoors at Riverside Quarry and New Jack.

I’m inspired to campus board and do more fingertip pull-ups.

Of course, I was dressed in khakis and polo shirt.  Wasn’t ready to climb today   

Found a couple of shots I took of two famous Stonemasters sporting EBs back in the 70's. The first shot is of John Bachar on Midnight Lghtning, with the customized sewn-on leather patches on the uppers, and the second shot is of Largo (John Long) at Stoney Point, CA. The 3rd shot is of me with Fires on Stem Gem, at Joshua Tree, 1984. I always did the start facing outward.

With all due respect Rich, in California Fires were the game changer, particularly for hard slab climbing, since they were the first truly sticky rubber shoe. As you point out, for steep edging at places like the Gunks it really wasn't that noticeable, but for granite slabs it was like magic. There was a slab boulder problem in Camp 4 that I had tried (in vain) at least a thousand times, that I was able to do first try in my Fires.

If you made a graph of pre-Fire stickiness it would look like the flat Valley floor, then go up like El Capitan when the Fires came out, then level out and climb very subtly and gradually ever since. The Fires from the early 80's were so sticky that after you cleaned the rubber you could slap the two shoes together and they would stick to each other!

Regarding Fires, in 2006 Bachar wrote on Supertopo: "I got my first pair in the Fall of 1982 in Camp 4 from Miguel Angel Gallego. It wasn't 'till spring of '83 that me and Mike Graham started selling them in Yosemite Mountain Shop. I remember their first order was for 265 pairs and there was a line 75 yds. long in front of the Mountain Shop before it opened that day. They sold every last pair in about two hours!"