Why ever belay with an atc again if you own a gri gri?

I use Grigri with and without the R's

AaronEcht Echternachtwrote:

Has it ever happened that someone was belaying and knocked unconscious and the gri gri held?

Also has anyone been knocked unconscious and the ATC did not?

Most likely you get dropped using a gri gri. That happens regularly.

If anyone is interested, a copy of Accidents in North American Climbing will have accounts of both. Leader pulls off a block and falls, belayer is knocked unconscious, leader is caught by grirgi / leader falls, belayer loses control of brake stand, leader is dropped by ATC. (I don't recall hearing a story of a belayer being knocked unconscious while using an ATC, but there are plenty of stories demonstrating that it takes a lot less than that to lose control of the brake stand).

As a bonus, you will also find stories like: climber's usual partner is busy, shows Dad how to use a grigri and then sets off on their proj, gets dropped.

This is a great reason to read accident reports---so you don't have to listen to bullshit speculation by strangers on the Internet!

In principle a grigri is safer, but statistically is it in the real world? I've heard of more accidents with a grigri (due to user error) but that's just anecdotal. I'd be curious to know if it's actually safer in the real world when you include user error. 

I'm going with the above reply that I'd be happy with either and prefer the belayer use what THEY are comfortable with. I think user error is way more of a factor than the device itself since user error is WAY more likely to be a problem than someone getting knocked out while belaying or even losing control of the rope if someone knows what they are doing.

My partners are typically proficient with both, and it's almost always grigri on single pitch (more due to convenience than safety) and ATC on multipitch (due to weight and double rope rappels).

AaronEcht Echternachtwrote:

Has it ever happened that someone was belaying and knocked unconscious and the gri gri held?

Also has anyone been knocked unconscious and the ATC did not?

Most likely you get dropped using a gri gri. That happens regularly.

I once got my ankle caught in a crack and fell upside down hanging from my ankle, and I looked at my friend who was looking away and didn't have his hands on the grigri. The grigri caught. 

Does that count?

Ricky Harlinewrote:

I once got my ankle caught in a crack and fell upside down hanging from my ankle, and I looked at my friend who was looking away and didn't have his hands on the grigri. The grigri caught. 

Does that count?

Yes

AaronEcht Echternachtwrote:

Has it ever happened that someone was belaying and knocked unconscious and the gri gri held?

Also has anyone been knocked unconscious and the ATC did not?

Most likely you get dropped using a gri gri. That happens regularly.

My partner and I have fallen asleep belaying on big walls before. Unconcious, just not knocked. Wasn’t worried, just annoyed by rope drag.

John Clarkwrote:

My partner and I have fallen asleep belaying on big walls before. Unconcious, just not knocked. Wasn’t worried, just annoyed by rope drag.

Both leader and belayer asleep?

Alan Cwrote:

(Rant - spent first two years of climbing scoffing at the need to spend $ on gri gri when atc was fine, past 5 years, full convert to gri gri)

 Ignoring half ropes and multipitch situations, why do you continue to use your non assisted atc over an assisted brake device? This is for people who actually own both, because I concede that the cost difference is understandable.  

So, I expect the most common response is feeding out slack just isn't as comfortable than an atc. My response is: sure, at first, but you can get to 99% of your skill with an atc with the manufacturer recommended gri gri feed out technique with a totally reasonable amount of practice.  By reasonable I mean, doesn't the convience of being able to belay with a gri gri for the rest of your life outweigh that minuscule adjustment period in comparison? 

But, what other reasons am I missing? Real answers appreciated.  Not trying to argue, the rant above is meant to be light hearted 

Because the Gri only does one thing well, and even that’s debatable. The ATC is way more versatile, and you never know what scenarios may come your way.

I've been climbing for over 20 years, and learned to belay with a tube style device. My friends and I used them for years. Today, I wouldn't go sport climbing with someone if they belayed with an ATC style device. 

I’d rather get belayed on a sport climb by a competent atc belayer than someone who takes both hands off a Grigri because it ‘autolocks’. I’ve taken enough solo falls on a grigri to know 10+ feet of rope can zip through it before it locks if there’s minimal tension on the brake hand side rope.

As mentioned above I definitely want my big wall aid belayer using a grigri even more than for a sport climb due to sleep or just lack of attention. 

climbing00wrote:

I've been climbing for over 20 years, and learned to belay with a tube style device. My friends and I used them for years. Today, I wouldn't go sport climbing with someone if they belayed with an ATC style device. 

Your ticks are also almost exclusively sport, which means a lot of the flexibility of an ATC is useless to you. 

Casey Jwrote:

Your ticks are also almost exclusively sport, which means a lot of the flexibility of an ATC is useless to you. 

This is kinda silly. We all know they are great in guide mode and also rappelling with an autoblock. We bring them on multipitch as a backup for these reasons. But showing up to belay a leader with this tool is like showing up to the tee box with your putter. 

When someone is on TR or leading with falls and hangdogging being likely, I prefer the Grigri, but I'd rather lead belay with something else in other cases.

For those for whom the locking up is the main issue, the Lifeguard and the Birdie are good alternatives to the Grigri. They feed more smoothly, work pretty much the same way, and catch almost as quickly.

On lead, I prefer my belayer uses the device he or she feels most comfortable and competent with. If I have concerns about lowering, I'll rappel. I also never get on something where there's a reasonable chance I'll fall until I fully know and trust the belayer.

There's a solution that suits most concerns: the Revo. It's big, clunky, and expensive, but it has assisted braking (not as fast as the Grigri, though), you can't load it incorrectly, and it feeds more smoothly even than an ATC. It hasn't really caught on, though, possibly because of the price. 

For multi-pitch, the Gigajul is great because it's light, small, and can do everything. That's what I take on trips instead of an ATC and Grigri.

Jaren Watson wrote:

You can run the experiment without the inconvenience of unconsciousness.

Have your belayer go hands free and take a fall, once on a gri gri and once on an atc. Report back on which you prefer.

So it's theoretical, not practical.  Got it.

Interestingly there was a recent "weekend whipper" on climbing mag where a climber was trying to do a very hard free version of an aid route, and the fall, with the belayer using a gri-gri, smashed the falling climber into the belayer on a hanging belay where there was no option of the belayer re-positioning.  They switched to using an ATC because the natural slippage gave a better fall (didn't collide with the belayer).

Weekend Whipper

j mowrote:

This is kinda silly. We all know they are great in guide mode and also rappelling with an autoblock. We bring them on multipitch as a backup for these reasons. But showing up to belay a leader with this tool is like showing up to the tee box with your putter. 

I disagree, but I'm happy you like your equipment. My point was mostly that sport climbs don't involve major rope work, weight or other considerations, so being 100% gri gri stan makes a lot more sense through that lens. 

Sometimes I’ll loan my grigri to an inexperienced friend and forget to grab it off them later. So then I’ll use my ATC 

As a follow-up on the replies in this post so far, I propose a slightly more nuanced question:

Would you rather be belayed with someone with an ATC and a solid brake hand or do you prefer someone with a brake assisted device (but not full GriGri mode) with a sloppy brake hand? The first belayer follows all manufacturers recommendations/restrictions/rules and the second belayer not so much. This question is for single-pitch, multi-pitch, ice, aid, big wall, small wall, sport, trad, aid, from Ecuador to Antarctica and all the way around.

Bb Cc wrote:

Can you top rope belay solo with an atc in guide mode? Just seems a relevant question at this point in the thread .

No