How hard do people really climb?

Sam Mwrote:I mean I played a good amount of organised soccer from a young age and I'm not a conditioned soccer mutant with huge developmental advantages over someone starting amateur soccer at 30.

Hmm...or maybe I am!? On second thought it's maybe a bit shitty to assume that.

I'm sure it's really tough leaning the coordination and fitness for a new ball sport as an adult, even in a beer league. And it would be totally assumed that it's impossible to reach any kind of advanced level.

abandon moderation wrote:

Looks like this is the source from 4 years ago: reddit.com/r/climbing/comme…

They used lead/redpoint, and only used sport climbs 

The sharp jump from 5.XXd to 5.XXa,  then dramatic decrease to 5.XXb is kinda funny, but confirms what we all already know.

It would be interesting to compare against systems like the Australian grades. Definitely a bit of evidence for YDS being a terrible grading system

abandon moderation wrote:

Looks like this is the source from 4 years ago: reddit.com/r/climbing/comme…

They used lead/redpoint, and only used sport climbs 

The sharp jump from 5.XXd to 5.XXa,  then dramatic decrease to 5.XXb is kinda funny, but confirms what we all already know.

My guess is the jump is a result of how a climb is categorized when it doesn't have a letter grade associated with it. For example, what would you call a 5.11-? Or what about just a plain 5.11? Enough of those sort of routes in the data would skew the "a" grades quite a lot.

hames rogen wrote:

A few slight corrections for the pedantic: a marathon is 26.2 miles and nobody in the world is pacing at 4:30, since that would be 1:57:53 which is about 2 minutes faster than the unofficial world record of 1:59:40 that Kipchogee did in '19. But to be fair to you, elite times for men of between 2:02:00 and 2:10:00 (ish) means pacing at 4:39 - 4:57.

These new-age bots are wild

PortlandRobwrote:

All of these comments about defining what "I am a 5.X climber" means is exactly why I was trying to steer things more in the direction of the part of the original question about what percent of climbers can onsight 5.12-. I generally agree with what has been hashed and re-hashed ad nauseam about the inherent ambiguity of being a 5.X climber. Sprayers will want to use something like their max redpoint grade. Fine. I'm not here to deflate anyone's ego. Others will humbly (and I would argue misleadingly) state they are 5.7 climbers. The point (like Li Hu mentioned) of defining your climbing ability vis-a-vis a grade is simply to help your prospective climbing partner(s) know what they are getting into and with whom. If I'm looking for a partner to climb the North Ridge of Mt Stuart in Washington with, I don't care how many 12's you flashed at your gym. I'm going to tell you I feel comfortable leading 5.10- in the alpine, have plenty of alpine and crack experience at that grade and feel confident about the route, and will want to know the same from you. I need to know if I may need to lead everything, if you are going to be quick and efficient, or if you'll even be experienced and fast enough to get up the thing. If we're just out for a single pitch crag day, consequences are smaller, but let's get on the same page about what/where we want to climb so both can have a fun/safe time. It's about setting expectations with partners. That's it. I'm a 5.X climber is meaningless without the context of the objective.

And for those really hell-bent on assigning a single grade to themselves or others - I think your hardest current onsight grade is the least ambiguous metric. That will almost invariably be a sport route friendly to your style and area. Of course this still leaves a ton about your ability and experience undefined, but if your partners need more info, they'll ask.

I am not doing a hard alpine route with someone I don’t know. 

It doesn’t matter what a new partner says as it becomes clear very quickly what they actually climb when you’re on the rock so you better find out in a lesser environment first 

Sam Mwrote:

Hmm...or maybe I am!? On second thought it's maybe a bit shitty to assume that.

I'm sure it's really tough leaning the coordination and fitness for a new ball sport as an adult, even in a beer league. And it would be totally assumed that it's impossible to reach any kind of advanced level.

Can only speak for myself, but I tried to pick up soccer as an adult, and yes it does feel hopeless playing against people who spent hundreds of hours learning to dribble and pass in grade school. Very demoralizing. Climbing, where there's no one to compete against and no one on my team to disappoint, has been much nicer in that sense. I've wondered what kind of advantage climbers who start young have and if it will become a de facto prerequisite for e.g. serious competition climbing (or is it already?).

Pete Swrote:

Can only speak for myself, but I tried to pick up soccer as an adult, and yes it does feel hopeless playing against people who spent hundreds of hours learning to dribble and pass in grade school. Very demoralizing. Climbing, where there's no one to compete against and no one on my team to disappoint, has been much nicer in that sense. I've wondered what kind of advantage climbers who start young have and if it will become a de facto prerequisite for e.g. serious competition climbing (or is it already?).

Yeah, soccer is a weird one. You can be unathletic as shit but really, really good if you’ve played your entire life while someone who is the most athletic person ever will be complete ass if they pick it up later in life. I’m not sure there are a lot  other sports that have similar results. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Yeah, soccer is a weird one. You can be unathletic as shit but really, really good if you’ve played your entire life while someone who is the most athletic person ever will be complete ass if they pick it up later in life. I’m not sure there are a lot  other sports that have similar results. 

Its a sport that so many people play at a young age.

I read a comment from a douchebag on a soccer subreddit, claiming he'd won the local junior league coaching his kids under-8 side, by drilling them them all play a contemporary zonal passing game with a high pressing defense...at age 7.

And that if your kids under-8 team just runs around after the ball having fun and trying to kick it (you know, LIKE EVERY NORMAL KID) both you and the kid should probably just give up.

Sam Mwrote:

Its a sport that so many people play at a young age.

I read a comment from a douchebag on a soccer subreddit, claiming he'd won the local junior league coaching his kids under-8 side, by drilling them them all play a contemporary zonal passing game with a high pressing defense...at age 7.

And that if your kids under-8 team just runs around after the ball having fun and trying to kick it (you know, LIKE EVERY NORMAL KID) both you and the kid should probably just give up.

Parents in the USA tend to overdrive kids until they realise the kid doesn’t have the talents for whatever. It can be anything including climbing. I believe it’s called “competitive spirit”? 

At my climbing gyms, parents are taking toddlers and even babies to climb. I climb up an island with the easiest climb at v3 only to see a baby at the top crawling about cause he/she can’t yet walk. I can only guess the baby climbed up a v3 or harder? Was I impressed? Shocked at first, and thinking “child endangerment” as the father rushed to gather up his baby 15 feet off the gym mat.

I started mountaineering/skiing at 8, and starting at that age didn’t really help me get to world class anything. Best I climbed in the late-1980s was 5.12d/5.13b. I had fun, and climbed with others having fun. Climbing helped me deal with a broken family and other things in my life, but no particular goal for greatness.

Of course, climbing wasn’t an Olympic sport back then, but, honestly, that wouldn’t have changed what I nor my friends did at all. It was the “van life” of the last century, that’s all.

Li Hu, keep in mind that in the ‘80s, 8a (13b) was on the lower end of “world class.”

Li Huwrote:

Parents in the USA tend to overdrive kids until they realise the kid doesn’t have the talents for whatever. It can be anything including climbing. I believe it’s called “competitive spirit”? 

At my climbing gyms, parents are taking toddlers and even babies to climb. I climb up an island with the easiest climb at v3 only to see a baby at the top crawling about cause he/she can’t yet walk. I can only guess the baby climbed up a v3 or harder? Was I impressed? Shocked at first, and thinking “child endangerment” as the father rushed to gather up his baby 15 feet off the gym mat.

I started mountaineering/skiing at 8, and starting at that age didn’t really help me get to world class anything. Best I climbed in the late-1980s was 5.12d/5.13b. I had fun, and climbed with others having fun. Climbing helped me deal with a broken family and other things in my life, but no particular goal for greatness.

Of course, climbing wasn’t an Olympic sport back then, but, honestly, that wouldn’t have changed what I nor my friends did at all. It was the “van life” of the last century, that’s all.

So you say all this just to tell us that, at your peak, you were able to climb routes only 1 grade below the hardest established at the time. I'm not sure I see your point. 5.13b in the mid-to-late 80's was absolutely elite. That would be equivalent to 5.14c/d in today's climbing...

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

So you say all this just to tell us that, at your peak, you were able to climb routes only 1 grade below the hardest established at the time. I'm not sure I see your point. 5.13b in the mid-to-late 80's was absolutely elite. That would be equivalent to 5.14c/d in today's climbing...

That’s a huge difference. Doing 5.13c is much harder than being able to do one 5.13b at Smith. Then 13d, 14a it doesn’t get harder linearly.

Li Huwrote:

That’s a huge difference. Doing 5.13c is much harder than being able to do one 5.13b at Smith. Then 13d, 14a it doesn’t get harder linearly.

Reread my post and get back to me with a reply that’s in-line with this discussion. In no way does comparing the difference of difficulty between 13b and 14a factor in to my point. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Reread my post and get back to me with a reply that’s in-line with this discussion. In no way does comparing the difference of difficulty between 13b and 14a factor in to my point. 

Thanks for the comments. Many people I climbed with could climb 12d and 13b face. It’s strong climbing, but not really elite.

Li Huwrote:

Thanks for the comments. Many people I climbed with could climb 12d and 13b face. It’s strong climbing, but not really elite.

So let’s look at the facts. The first .14- in the US was done in 1986, by a Frenchman. It would be a while before a Yank would climb that hard. If you remove Lynn Hill and Robyn Erbersfield from the equation, an American woman would not climb harder than 5.13b until ‘93 or ‘94. Up until the mid to late ‘90s, the World Cup qualifiers for men were 8a, or 5.13b.

So, if indeed you were regularly sending 5.13b in  the 1980s, and were surrounded by others doing the same, you surrounded yourself with some of the highest performing climbers in the world, and you were one of them. That you started climbing as a kid, certainly did not hurt.

And yes, I realize that 8a is practically warmup grade for a decent sport climber these days.  However, you brought up the 1980s, claiming that 8a was run of the mill, which it was not. 

Li Huwrote:

Thanks for the comments. Many people I climbed with could climb 12d and 13b face. It’s strong climbing, but not really elite.

You’re either still completely missing the point or willingly wrong. As Frank stated, 5.13b in the mid-to-late 80’s was absolutely world class. As I said, that would be equivalent to climbing 5.14c/d today. Both were/are elite grades given the circumstances. 

I won’t even get started on the fact that you keep lumping 12d and 13b together even though they are a couple grades apart and you just went on some spiel about how grades progress exponentially in difficulty lol 

Frank Steinwrote:

So let’s look at the facts. The first .14- in the US was done in 1986, by a Frenchman. It would be a while before a Yank would climb that hard. If you remove Lynn Hill and Robyn Erbersfield from the equation, an American woman would not climb harder than 5.13b until ‘93 or ‘94. Up until the mid to late ‘90s, the World Cup qualifiers for men were 8a, or 5.13b.

So, if indeed you were regularly sending 5.13b in  the 1980s, and were surrounded by others doing the same, you surrounded yourself with some of the highest performing climbers in the world, and you were one of them. That you started climbing as a kid, certainly did not hurt.

And yes, I realize that 8a is practically warmup grade for a decent sport climber these days.  However, you brought up the 1980s, claiming that 8a was run of the mill, which it was not. 

Sure, the intent was never to say I was an elite climber. It was a lifestyle, … maybe I only climbed a couple hard climbs   

I’ll just leave it with this “The older you get the better you used to be”.   

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Frank Steinwrote:

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I believe this is what you may refer to as “being trolled”. 

“Everything someone says on the internet is true” - Julius “Yoda” Stalin

Personally, I put up a new 5.15a on el cap a couple years back, but I don’t really spray about it. Keep it old school. Keep your yapper shut.

John Clarkwrote:

I believe this is what you may refer to as “being trolled”. 

“Everything someone says on the internet is true” - Julius “Yoda” Stalin

Personally, I put up a new 5.15a on el cap a couple years back, but I don’t really spray about it. Keep it old school. Keep your yapper shut.

I’m old and may have had my decades mixed up… sorry for that and I’m not a troll.