Half ropes as singles

Mike G wrote:... You’ll be using this on terrain you’re incredibly comfortable on yet the 300 grams of added weight of a full strength single line is a prohibitive factor to you?

Exactly. Even if it's possible, why? It can be fun/interesting to see how you can shave weight like crazy, but at some point you have to stop and go climbing.

Is there a 20 mile approach involved? Trying to break a speed record? Hoping to prevent getting too much exercise? Not trying to be too sarcastic, but is there an end goal that shaving 300g will help you accomplish?

Z Winters wrote:

Exactly. Even if it's possible, why? It can be fun/interesting to see how you can shave weight like crazy, but at some point you have to stop and go climbing.

Is there a 20 mile approach involved? Trying to break a speed record? Hoping to prevent getting too much exercise? Not trying to be too sarcastic, but is there an end goal that shaving 300g will help you accomplish?

I avoided giving personal details, because the query was one of engineering/material science and could be answered generally. But here I go:

First, I am an academic with a mechanical engineering undergrad, and I like the intellectual exercise of optimizing, analyzing my own risk management approaches and logic. When Ueli Steck started using 7mm rope on his solo ascents in 2009, at a time when most half ropes were barely entering 8.5mm, I thought he was being smart, not crazy as some at the time thought. He adopted the same principles as those of good machine design.

Second, I have been saying since my OP, the 300g saving is hardly my major consideration, it is more about safety/durability: "To pass the "single" test, these ultra-thin triple rated ropes need to have more core material than equivalently sized halfs, so that necessarily means that they will a thinner sheath." as another poster further clarified. I feel a hard-wearing half rope is safer for me than a thin-sheathed triple.

Third, related to first, I find aesthetics in fine-tuning my systems, knowing I have done the best that I can. As a business professor I know I am quite likely paying unjustifiable premiums when I buy Arcteryx or Mammut but my whole collection is top of the line models from these two brands that I love. In the 10 years that I have owned it, I have never used my Arcteryx hardshell in rain/shower in the mountains (because I am a wimp, I don't go our if forecast is doubtful) but it gives a good feeling that I have the best protection for my weak body tucked in my pack should I end up in a situation where I need it.

I have been using Beal Opera for years, I just love the touch and feel of it and it gives me a psychological boost when I climb. It is not rational, it may not materially matter at the mediocre grades I climb (and will ever climb), but it matters emotionally. I make sure I have taken a good dump at home and take a leak and big gulp of water before I climb, these things are second nature to me.

Fourth and the trigger for my query: in the area I go on vacation regularly, there are 1000 foot long classic granite routes (the longest and best in the country, maybe, South of the Himalayas) and I don't know anyone who has done more than one in a day. As a time-constrained climber, I have been fascinated with the idea of enchaining 2 or even three routes in a day by climbing as simply and as efficiently as I can. I am not sure doing three in a day is even possible, I will know when I try but I am confident 2 is doable. My partner for those special occasions will be the best in the country, I mean the elites, who will climb anything I ask and leave the planning and decision making to me. If I do three routes, it means walking down 3000 feet, and 3+ hours total hike, in addition to 3000 feet of climbing ascent, in hot/tropical conditions. That is when I decided I don't want to carry my 60m rope, and I am looking at 30m (although in practice it is my partner who will carry it, without much thought). I have been an ultra-runner and am looking at this part of my climbing from that perspective.
Thanks for all the thoughts/comments!

Best wishes,
TT

So I have ranted on this topic before....  the UAA fall standard appears to be a arbitrary number with little to no bearing on real world use cases.  

For anyone that is arguing against using a single half rope because of a fear of breaking due to a fall, I would like you to find and post a single modern case of a climber breaking their rope due to a fall.  It just isn't a thing.   

What is a "thing" is cutting your rope, and this is in fact one of my greatest concerns when climbing. As has been mentioned by the posters these ultra thin triple rated ropes generally have less sheath proportion which at least theoretically gives better protection against cutting and abrasion. This once again is what kills climbers, not repeated high factor falls eventually breaking your rope.  When I climb with a thicker rope it is for protection against cutting through a rope, not protection against breakage during the fall.

A ultra thin triple rated rope seems to me to be the perfect rope for a difficult, overhung, project sport climb.  When it comes to the Alpine and moderate trad climbing where weight is an issue I would much prefer a thicker sheathed half rope is it offers protection against a proven risk. This of course means that you need to keep in mind the limitations and if for some reason you just took a big factor 2 fall on you half rope then it is probably time to bail and let the rope recover or retire it... Assuming you arent being rescued after breaking your pelvis 

All of this said I am really impressed with the triple rated Beal Opera which is a 8.6 mm rope if I remember correctly and has a sheath percentage over 40%.  My next pair of doubles will likely be these...  Until then I have no problem climbing on one of my 8.0 mammuts in the right situations

I would have no problem climbing on a double rope under the circumstances described.  I have used a double as a single before. As someone mentioned use a belay device up to the task, like the new black diamond Alpine guide ATC designed for sub 9mm single ropes.  Given the slabby nature of the routes the OP intends to climb a FF 2 impact is literally impossible because he would be slowed down by sliding on the rock. 

I have been using a mammut serenity, a 8.7mm tripple rated rope, for 6 years now. (Bought my 2nd last year)  It's durability is great, not noticably different from 11mm ropes of the 1980s or even my previous 9.5mm rope.

I think a lot of the nay Sayers think the triple rated ropes are just skinnied thick ropes.  If that were true we would have had them decades earlier. I suspect there is some very cool material technology and engineering going into them.  

A great feature of triple ropes or a double rope used as a single is if you think there is a potential for a sharp edge you can fold it in half and do a half pitch with 2 strands. 

Nick B wrote: 
When it comes to the Alpine and moderate trad climbing where weight is an issue I would much prefer a thicker sheathed half rope is it offers protection against a proven risk. This of course means that you need to keep in mind the limitations and if for some reason you just took a big factor 2 fall on you half rope then it is probably time to bail and let the rope recover or retire it... Assuming you arent being rescued after breaking your pelvis 

All of this said I am really impressed with the triple rated Beal Opera which is a 8.6 mm rope if I remember correctly and has a sheath percentage over 40%.  My next pair of doubles will likely be these...  Until then I have no problem climbing on one of my 8.0 mammuts in the right situations

This is the real reason I would retire the rope: if I do fall on one of these routes (they are pretty run out but easy and no one really falls there), I will need recovery time regardless of what rope I use and whether simul or pitched :)
 
I have used my Mammut Genesis (a burly half rope with some 48% sheath) exactly that way you describe, one strand, even on entire north face multi-pitch ice in the Alps, where the leader was confident and the rope was more for me the follower but at that time I was new to climbing and my leader took the decisions.
 
A 30m Genesis would be the perfect rope for my current need, but the reason this dilemma/query came up is, it is only Mammut Phoenix and Serenity that are sold in 30m size. Anyway thank you for your response; it makes perfect sense.
 
  rockandice.com/gear-reviews…
 
 
 

climber pat wrote: I would have no problem climbing on a double rope under the circumstances described.  I have used a double as a single before. As someone mentioned use a belay device up to the task, like the new black diamond Alpine guide ATC designed for sub 9mm single ropes.  Given the slabby nature of the routes the OP intends to climb a FF 2 impact is literally impossible because he would be slowed down by sliding on the rock.

I have been using a mammut serenity, a 8.7mm tripple rated rope, for 6 years now. (Bought my 2nd last year)  It's durability is great, not noticably different from 11mm ropes of the 1980s or even my previous 9.5mm rope.

I think a lot of the nay Sayers think the triple rated ropes are just skinnied thick ropes.  If that were true we would have had them decades earlier. I suspect there is some very cool material technology and engineering going into them.  

A great feature of triple ropes or a double rope used as a single is if you think there is a potential for a sharp edge you can fold it in half and do a half pitch with 2 strands. 

Sorry, our posts crossed. Thanks, this is very helpful; I haven't seen a Serenity and it is reassuring to hear about its durability.

I have belayed the 8.5mm Opera with the normal ATC Guide and haven't felt any issue. Good to know of the Alpine Guide.

Lone Ranger,

Where are these routes?  They sound like my type of climbing.

Pat

Lone Ranger wrote:

I don't want to take undue risk but I also don't want grandma-level logic to dictate my equipment choices either.

Insinuating the responses you received contain grandma logic is a fun one because A. Everyone gave you pretty much the same answer, that it’s safe but you’re without a doubt sacrificing durability and strength for weight B. You’ve attempted to set yourself on the intellectual high ground with a fallacious statement; there’s no inherent connection between being a grandmother and the logic behind their statements.

Mike G wrote:
Insinuating the responses you received contain grandma logic is a fun one because A. Everyone gave you pretty much the same answer, that it’s safe but you’re without a doubt sacrificing durability and strength for weight B. You’ve attempted to set yourself on the intellectual high ground with a fallacious statement; there’s no inherent connection between being a grandmother and the logic behind their statements.

That was a silly and uncalled for statement, I deleted it, my apologies.

Almost everyone up to that point kept repeating that by half I am sacrificing durability/strength whereas many posts provided cogent arguments that lead to the opposite conclusion (at least in different contexts of use), which was the basis of the OP. But it is fine, we can live with different conclusions. Cheers

climber pat wrote: Lone Ranger,

Where are these routes?  They sound like my type of climbing.

Pat

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/115330116/high-lonesome and https://www.mountainproject.com/route/112422699/deepavali and their neighbors...

I’ve raised the same question a few times:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112023402/single-double-twin#ForumMessage-112023779

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116158618/12-ropes-not-rated-as-singles#ForumMessage-116160778

I think comments along the lines of “is your life worth 10oz” are unhelpful. That argument can be made ad absurdum about all kinds of arbitrary lines we draw for “safe enough.” This shit’s never actually “safe.” It’s only ever safe enough for my partner and me in these particular circumstances, and that’s a personal decision.

Some half ropes are substantially more durable than sub-9mm single ropes. And even the least durable half-rated rope will hold the typical falls of an average not small dude on a single strand, and they do all the time for those who use them for real climbing. Just be sure to use an adequate belay device, and you might want a glove.

We climb on a single half pretty regularly anytime we simulclimb, and I use a single 25m half for the Linville Crusher. 

The rope doesn't make the climber.

You are splitting hairs, if you are concerned with weight, buy the light rope, if you are concerned with severing the rope, buy the thick rope, etc, etc. Everything else in-between is a judgement call. G'luck!

Brian Abram wrote: I’ve raised the same question a few times:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112023402/single-double-twin#ForumMessage-112023779

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116158618/12-ropes-not-rated-as-singles#ForumMessage-116160778

I think comments along the lines of “is your life worth 10oz” are unhelpful. That argument can be made ad absurdum about all kinds of arbitrary lines we draw for “safe enough.” This shit’s never actually “safe.” It’s only ever safe enough for my partner and me in these particular circumstances, and that’s a personal decision.

Some half ropes are substantially more durable than sub-9mm single ropes. And even the least durable half-rated rope will hold the typical falls of an average not small dude on a single strand, and they do all the time for those who use them for real climbing. Just be sure to use an adequate belay device, and you might want a glove.

We climb on a single half pretty regularly anytime we simulclimb, and I use a single 25m half for the Linville Crusher. 

Thanks, Brian, for sharing the links to your two previous posts where you raised the same question. In your post from the first link, you started off with a link to a post from Steph Davis' blog, which includes a guest post by Dave Furman of Mammut. I'm re-sharing that post here because I found it to be very easy to understand and super helpful in making an informed decision what types of rope to use for different climbing applications. https://stephdavis.co/blog/straight-from-the-mammoths-mouth-things-you-want-to-know-about-ropes/

Jared Casper wrote:

... but you don't get something for nothing.  To pass the "single" test, these ultra-thin triple rated ropes need to have more core material than equivalently sized halfs, so that necessarily means that they will a thinner sheath.  If you are on a climb where it is more important to have a thick sheath to avoid being cut my sharp rocks than it is to be able to hold multiple giant falls before breaking, than a Xmm half rope is going to be better than an Xmm triple rated rope. Neither will be safer than a thicker single that has both a thicker sheath and the additional core material, but that isn't what is being discussed.

I'm certainly no crusher, but analytically it seems to me that these super thin triple rated ropes are really only useful for someone going for a redpoint of their insane 5.18 super proj. (edit: or I guess they'd be useful for hard "backcountry" routes with a long approach, etc.)

I'm glad to see some other people actually GET IT. The arguments raised against a half rope being used as a single are only being made by people who aren't thinking of real world applications. The UIAA fall tests are absolutely ridiculous in reference to any real world scenario, if you take a factor 2 fall you're going to be nursing your bruised kidney and pondering life choices long enough for the rope to regain elasticity before you lead out again (and for god sake you better have lowered your belayer out to avoid the factor 2 fall again you moron).

For those arguing against half rope as a single, I have triple rated 60m sterling nano 9mm and 70m beal joker 9.1 OR 60m mammut phoenix 8mm half to choose from. The sheath on the triple rated ropes IS thinner and it IS less durable. The joker is faring better than the nano, but they are both wearing the sheath to the point of needing replacement while the mammut 8mm doesn't show any wear. It's abrasion from rock that wears your rope on alpine terrain for 99.99% of users. You're not out there projecting on lichen covered 5.9 taking repeated whippers. 

For doing alpine routes car to car I want to only climb with a 20L pack on route, bit packs are annoying. The rope in the pack makes these flimsy packs have structure and carry much better. If I use the 9mm sterling I can't quite get everything in the bag, it just takes up too much room and I have shit dangling on the approach. We used the phoenix for doing the east to west ridge of forbidden and also the complete north ridge of Stuart. The later is something like 16-18 miles and over 9k feet with 3,000 feet of technical climbing. That tiny rope was a god send for the route. We used it as a single on the first few pitches where we wanted to take it past 30 meters. After that we only belayed 3 pitches of 30 meters and simul climbed the rest of the route using it as a twin. I would absolutely do this again.

To the OP, for the 8mm phoenix;  I use an ATC guide with 2 biners through the belay loop, that has provided more than enough friction to easily hold a 15 footer on vertical terrain. I also tried a edelrid mega jul early on, it does NOT lock up at all on an 8mm (even though it's the bottom of their stated range). I'd stick to a regular tube device, it's just easier to manage when you're simul climbing, mega jul always locks up when you move large amounts of rope fast, it's a pita. 

All that glowing endorsement said, if I were buying again for the purpose of rock routes and simul climbing using it as a single I would opt for a genesis without a doubt. I'd rather have the thicker sheath, because climbing out on the 9+ pitch of the CNR of Stuart with an 8mm as a single, well it sure as hell doesn't give you a fuzzy feeling about the rope cutting on an edge. Also going with the 8.5 you have the option of micro traxion above crux moves and it's just easier to manage from a rappel standpoint. The 8mm can coil up into a mess pretty easily.

Nick Drake wrote

To the OP, for the 8mm phoenix;  I use an ATC guide with 2 biners through the belay loop, that has provided more than enough friction to easily hold a 15 footer on vertical terrain. I also tried a edelrid mega jul early on, it does NOT lock up at all on an 8mm (even though it's the bottom of their stated range). I'd stick to a regular tube device, it's just easier to manage when you're simul climbing, mega jul always locks up when you move large amounts of rope fast, it's a pita. 

I'd recommend the new BD ATC Alpine (others have mentioned it in this thread too).  

I've waited for something like this (simply a scaled-down version of a regular ATC) for years and now use it whenever I am on doubles (which is most of the time).  Amazing control on even the thinnest ice climbing doubles.  Much better on rappel than the double-biner trick I used before.

Thanks for all the insightful responses.

Greetings,

Question related to the discussion above: would a half-rope climbing rope such as the "Black Diamond 7.9 Dry Climbing Rope" used alone--i.e. not in tandem with another half rope--be strong enough to hold the weight of a single adult in an emergency (e.g. climbing out the 4th storey of a burning building) where the rope is not stopping a falling body but just holding the weight of an adult climbing down it?

Thank you for your time.

I’ve repeatedly rapped off a single half rope off dozens of ice climbs. Never worried about it except the exorbitant stretch-but once the rope is weighted it’s fine ime (Beal gully are my half ropes) I use a tag line and a half rope pretty routinely when soloing. 

Yes, but unless "climbing out of a burning building" is a metaphor going over my head, you'd want something more heat resistant than nylon. Such as the Sterling Firetech2 maybe.

In practice half ropes must often function as single ropes anyway, even when two are used. For example before any runners are clipped on the second rope and if runners are very widely spaced.