Does down climbing damage an auto belay???

I was recently told by another gym user (not an employee) that down climbing will damage the auto belay (TruBlue in this case). I have been doing this for several years at this same gym with no comment from staff. I have also seen a class at this gym doing endurance runs climbing both up and down with the auto belay (with staff instructor present). On the other hand, at the newer Sharma gym near Barcelona, I was told that down climbing on auto belay (TruBlue, I think) was not permitted but I don't remember why or even if they gave a reason--not sure if it was the possibility of damaging the mechanism or if it was just a courtesy rule for those waiting. I have looked up the manuals for both TruBlu and Perfect Descent and see no mention of down climbing being allowed or not. I do, however, see plenty of Google search results that talk about the benefits of practicing down climbing in the gym and the auto belay being a good system to use for this training. A brief search on MP´s forums didn't help... or maybe I missed something?

Any auto belay experts out there want to clear this up? (Yeah, I know... first world problems and all... and when there is so much REAL rock to down climb.)

If an autobelay couldn't handle down climbing, there is absolutely no way it would ever be certified.

Must be a new employee or crossed communication of none allowed as courtesy for people waiting.

This sounds like propaganda invented by some poser who is upset that I'm doing 40 minute ARC sessions on the autobelay to train for REAL climbing.

I think I’m feeling the subtle vibe of a consensus here…

The woman who told me this seemed like she knew what she was talking about and I’m always wary of any “black holes” I might have in my climbing knowledge and willing to keep an open mind and learn… (even though I’m by no means a newbie to this rodeo). Where could she have picked up this information, anyway? Has anyone else ever been told this in the history of climbing gyms and autobelays?

Q: Does down climbing damage an auto belay???
A: Yes, but only if you downclimb faster than the auto belay would lower you.
Don't laugh. This is a SERIOUS first world problem.

Greg Dwrote:

This question is so dumb a bot couldn’t have even posed it. 

This is an example of the sort of bullshit that is wrecking this site. Nothing intelligent to add? Then just STFU . I was told the issue is that downclimbing and then falling MAY not allow the acceleration required to activate the brake on the autobelay. Especially closer to the ground

Glen Priorwrote:

This is an example of the sort of bullshit that is wrecking this site. Nothing intelligent to add? Then just STFU . I was told the issue is that downclimbing and then falling MAY not allow the acceleration required to activate the brake on the autobelay. Especially closer to the ground

Yes, you can hit the mat if you fall just a foot or two up the climb. Doesn't matter if that's on your way up or down.

I have posed the question via email to the TruBlue folks. We will see if this one belongs in the same bin with micro fractures or not. 

Shaniacwrote:

Q: Does down climbing damage an auto belay???
A: Yes, but only if you downclimb faster than the auto belay would lower you.
Don't laugh. This is a SERIOUS first world problem.

I seriously think you would have to go down head first for this, like a gecko or some sh!t

TJ Bindseilwrote:

I seriously think you would have to go down head first for this, like a gecko or some sh!t

“At first I could not believe my eyes. I thought it was some trick of the moonlight, some weird effect of shadow, but I kept looking, and it could be no delusion. I saw the fingers and toes grasp the corners of the stones, worn clear of the mortar by the stress of years, and by thus using every projection and inequality move downwards with considerable speed, just as a lizard moves along a wall.”

Bran Stoker- Dracula. Apparently the dread count was also an accomplished climber, and could probably also defeat an autobelay. 

rock climbing wrote:

Excellent my friend but vampires are aid

Does undeath make ygd, beloved phrase of MP, irrelevant? 

Does undeath make ygd, beloved phrase of MP, irrelevant?

Yes. MP did not get the first ascent of YGD, anyway. It was copy/pasted from another site.

Glen Priorwrote:

This is an example of the sort of bullshit that is wrecking this site. Nothing intelligent to add? Then just STFU . I was told the issue is that downclimbing and then falling MAY not allow the acceleration required to activate the brake on the autobelay. Especially closer to the ground

Good stuff right there. Especially the “nothing intelligent” followed by some swear words.  And then this:

I was told the issue is that downclimbing and then falling MAY not allow the acceleration required to activate the brake on the autobelay. Especially closer to the ground. 

The acceleration of gravity is the same whether you are climbing up or down.  You will fall at the same rate either way. Carry on Einstein. Or, more appropriate , Newton. 

Climbing Weaselwrote:

“At first I could not believe my eyes. I thought it was some trick of the moonlight, some weird effect of shadow, but I kept looking, and it could be no delusion. I saw the fingers and toes grasp the corners of the stones, worn clear of the mortar by the stress of years, and by thus using every projection and inequality move downwards with considerable speed, just as a lizard moves along a wall.”

Bran Stoker- Dracula. Apparently the dread count was also an accomplished climber, and could probably also defeat an autobelay. 

This is the content I’m here for!

Autobelays are safe to downclimb on unless you are undead Transylvanian nobility. But we may need Ryan Jenks to test this. 

High Plains Drifterwrote:

This is the content I’m here for!

Autobelays are safe to downclimb on unless you are undead Transylvanian nobility. But we may need Ryan Jenks to test this. 

AKA: Count Otto Belaycula

Ok, it happened again at another gym in the Barcelona area: “Please don’t downclimb with the autobelays. It damages the mechanism.”

Personally, I think it not true based on my perusal of the TruBlue user manual. Where did this idea come from? I’m inclined to think it is because they just don’t want folks doing endurance training but it has morphed into something else. The staff member at the gym (who I know and respect) tried to give me a technical explanation but it sounded more like word salad.

So, I am once again asking à la Bernie if anyone who is a TruBlue (or Perfect Descents) technical expert could weigh in on this. 

That question fails my personal test I use as a first pass to see if something is overblown or a real concern. It goes something like this "if x issue were real/that frequent, wouldn't you hear way more about it in the form of warnings, accidents, etc"

Granted there are one offs, unforeseen issues, etc. 

But do you really think there wouldn't be all kinds of warnings and rules if it was actually a serious risk to damage a piece of lifesaving equipment by doing something not that uncommon?

Having worked with those autobelays specifically, I have one possible explanation for this belief.

The webbing spool that sits in the autobelay is only tightly cinched when a climber falls. Repeated up and down laps can result (sometimes) in the spool only loosely winding. Or rather winding looser than expected. If this occurs, a fall can cinch a large portion of the spool all at once, resulting in a larger than expected initial drop.
basically take a spool of string, wind it up loosely, then pull the end hard. It’ll tighten up and you’ll end up with slack.
because the true blue webbing is neatly wound and slippery, the amount of slack pulled though can be surprising.
I have seen this phenomenon happen most dramatically when installing a new webbing spool.

Daniel Joderwrote:

The staff member at the gym (who I know and respect) tried to give me a technical explanation but it sounded more like word salad.

I call BS. TrueBlue is using eddy current braking system - there is no actual friction brake system that is being engaged. If the person is downclimbing the system is less "stressed" compared to when that person is being lowered - friction of the belt against housing is definitely going to be less. There is spring that retracts the belt, again no difference. It could be argued that slower deformation of the spring - when the climber is downclimbing, is more beneficial to the longer lifetime. 

Unfortunately, you have absolutely no chance to change gym policies once they are established. 

Edit - just saw the comment regarding loose spooling of the belt. Highly doubtful. Going up really fast and then down really slow might, perhaps,  create a looser winding. Ideally, two autobelays should be compared - then one with downclimbing, and one without, to rule out issues cropping up just due  to lots of use. Also, the loose winding of the belt that is being observed during maintenance might be explained by the unloaded winding up of the belt - similar to what may be observed with tape measure or electric vacuum cord.