Gatekeeping in the community

WF WF51wrote:

I'll take a MAGA rally over this any day. 

Either you didn’t read the thread or you are a lower quality troll than I am. 

John Clarkwrote:

Either you didn’t read the thread or you are a lower quality troll than I am. 

Obtuse, thy name is climbing. 

I am so pleased with how productive this thread has been. Really reducing the gatekeeping of the climbing community. Seems like anyone can chime in on this thread

Aside from world cup climbing, there are no rules in climbing. It's not golf, or basketball, or water polo, or chess. We don't have rules, we have style, and that's been the name of the game since the very, very beginning of Alpinism. I climb in NC, and that's a traditionalists wet dream. We've got tons of crags with old school ethics that haven't changed since route development began in the 60s, and that leads to adventurous, hard, scary climbing that requires a climber to have certain skills, both mental and physical, to tackle in good style, and I think that's a good thing. That's the ideological ground that I'm coming from to mount my reply to this, and I'm gonna try to be as kind and equitable as possible. 

Is the lack of permadraws on sport cliffs and traditionalist’s refusal to bolt cracks a form of gatekeeping in climbing?

There are a few bolted cracks out there. But, it's always always always cooler to hear someone did it sans bolts. Other than that, I think we need to remember that for the long and illustrious history of climbing, "sport" climbing did not exist. The reason that sport climbing came about was to be able to climb routes with little or no opportunity for natural (read: traditional) protection. If there are no cracks / pods / weaknesses in the wall, there's no other option but to either free-solo it, or to use bolts. That, and only that, is the reason that sport climbing came to be. "Safety", other than preventing every fall from being a ground fall, wasn't the driving force for sport climbing. It was pushing grades on steeper, harder stone. Cracks are largely easily protected using traditional protection, and if you don't have a rack of cams, odds are someone in the community around you will. Go make friends with that person and learn to trad climb if you want to climb cracks and not buy a rack. This is a sport that requires partnership. The only thing keeping the gate on that one is your social skills, and that's coming from someone with low to moderate ability to be a functioning member of society. 

The permadraw question is another issue entirely, but I'd say that while adding draws to a route does decrease the commitment factor for a route, but again, sometimes you just sacrifice a draw to the climbing gods, and sometimes you're gifted with a draw in return. That's just kind of been the way it's played. When I go big mountain trad climbing and have to leave some tat and lockers, I remember how expensive a country club membership or shotgun ammo would be, and that makes me feel better. There's also issues with permadraws as well. If you've got fixed hardware on a route, it's not uncommon for that hardware to get worn out way faster than your own gear would and pose a safety hazard. So, there's arguments to say it's less safe to trust fixed gear like that. 

Are less financially able people being intentionally kept from climbing by the high cost of gear required by first ascentionists who refuse to properly and permanently protect “their” climbs?

"Refuse" is doing a lot of work here. I'd say that the only actual responsibility someone who's put up an FA has is to themselves, and then to the local ethic. E.g.: If you're climbing in a local sport crag, it is a bit of a shitty move to poorly bolt some chossfest in the middle of an area, or if you're climbing in an area known for committing trad climbs, you probably shouldn't drill a bolt ladder up some 5.3 pitch. Other than that, I don't think that a first ascensionist has any responsibility to make a climb anything other than enjoyable to themselves. Most folks putting up routes, especially in popular areas do want others to feel welcome to try their routes, and that's awesome, but I don't think it's a matter of "no poor bitches on this pitch!" if someone makes a route more committing. 

In a scenario where someone puts a new route up in a sport only area, but they use very few bolts, a few gear placements, it's runout, there's no permanent anchor up top, there's serious fall potential, AND they intentionally put it up that way so that it makes it more difficult to climb -- this is the situation I'm assuming you're saying is bad -- yeah, that person probably isn't my favorite bolter, and I don't think I'm buying them too many beers at the end of the day, but no one's forcing you to climb that route, especially if you're in an area with a ton of other awesome routes. The other thing I can think of, is a pretty runout warmup at a harder crag, where a climber who's not climbing 5.13 would probably feel really out of place. In that scenario, that's probably not the crag for you. Get stronger, collect some good friends and gear, and come back when you're ready. That's why there's a difference in 5.13 sport climbing and 5.13 crack climbing. 

How can you possibly justify this?

Look. At the end of the day, we climb fucking rocks. It's not brain surgery, it's rock climbing. It's silly, and I'm happy with my silly little style rules. In the words of the immortal Royal Robins: "The beautiful thing to me about climbing is that you can’t justify it. It doesn’t pretend to be anything useful." 

Rounding out, I'd like to say that I understand the monetary issue. It costs a lot to buy a harness, and rope, and draws, and slings, and a rack, and shoes, and gasoline, and bags, and everything else. But, the wonderful thing about climbing is that it doesn't cost anything to make friends -- if you want to climb something, make a friend who will let you borrow their gear and teach you how to use it. That's the simple solution.

Cheers M8!

holy shit what a return on investment.

Sorry, it's friday and I couldn't stomach doing work for my actual job and needed to look busy

KD is really the MP meme gatekeeper. His shit is so good nobody else (not including you goatman) feels they can be apart of the game

Caleb BRwrote:

Aside from world cup climbing, there are no rules in climbing. It's not golf, or basketball, or water polo, or chess. We don't have rules, we have style, and that's been the name of the game since the very, very beginning of Alpinism. I climb in NC, and that's a traditionalists wet dream. We've got tons of crags with old school ethics that haven't changed since route development began in the 60s, and that leads to adventurous, hard, scary climbing that requires a climber to have certain skills, both mental and physical, to tackle in good style, and I think that's a good thing. That's the ideological ground that I'm coming from to mount my reply to this, and I'm gonna try to be as kind and equitable as possible. 

There are a few bolted cracks out there. But, it's always always always cooler to hear someone did it sans bolts. Other than that, I think we need to remember that for the long and illustrious history of climbing, "sport" climbing did not exist. The reason that sport climbing came about was to be able to climb routes with little or no opportunity for natural (read: traditional) protection. If there are no cracks / pods / weaknesses in the wall, there's no other option but to either free-solo it, or to use bolts. That, and only that, is the reason that sport climbing came to be. "Safety", other than preventing every fall from being a ground fall, wasn't the driving force for sport climbing. It was pushing grades on steeper, harder stone. Cracks are largely easily protected using traditional protection, and if you don't have a rack of cams, odds are someone in the community around you will. Go make friends with that person and learn to trad climb if you want to climb cracks and not buy a rack. This is a sport that requires partnership. The only thing keeping the gate on that one is your social skills, and that's coming from someone with low to moderate ability to be a functioning member of society. 

The permadraw question is another issue entirely, but I'd say that while adding draws to a route does decrease the commitment factor for a route, but again, sometimes you just sacrifice a draw to the climbing gods, and sometimes you're gifted with a draw in return. That's just kind of been the way it's played. When I go big mountain trad climbing and have to leave some tat and lockers, I remember how expensive a country club membership or shotgun ammo would be, and that makes me feel better. There's also issues with permadraws as well. If you've got fixed hardware on a route, it's not uncommon for that hardware to get worn out way faster than your own gear would and pose a safety hazard. So, there's arguments to say it's less safe to trust fixed gear like that. 

"Refuse" is doing a lot of work here. I'd say that the only actual responsibility someone who's put up an FA has is to themselves, and then to the local ethic. E.g.: If you're climbing in a local sport crag, it is a bit of a shitty move to poorly bolt some chossfest in the middle of an area, or if you're climbing in an area known for committing trad climbs, you probably shouldn't drill a bolt ladder up some 5.3 pitch. Other than that, I don't think that a first ascensionist has any responsibility to make a climb anything other than enjoyable to themselves. Most folks putting up routes, especially in popular areas do want others to feel welcome to try their routes, and that's awesome, but I don't think it's a matter of "no poor bitches on this pitch!" if someone makes a route more committing. 

In a scenario where someone puts a new route up in a sport only area, but they use very few bolts, a few gear placements, it's runout, there's no permanent anchor up top, there's serious fall potential, AND they intentionally put it up that way so that it makes it more difficult to climb -- this is the situation I'm assuming you're saying is bad -- yeah, that person probably isn't my favorite bolter, and I don't think I'm buying them too many beers at the end of the day, but no one's forcing you to climb that route, especially if you're in an area with a ton of other awesome routes. The other thing I can think of, is a pretty runout warmup at a harder crag, where a climber who's not climbing 5.13 would probably feel really out of place. In that scenario, that's probably not the crag for you. Get stronger, collect some good friends and gear, and come back when you're ready. That's why there's a difference in 5.13 sport climbing and 5.13 crack climbing. 

Look. At the end of the day, we climb fucking rocks. It's not brain surgery, it's rock climbing. It's silly, and I'm happy with my silly little style rules. In the words of the immortal Royal Robins: "The beautiful thing to me about climbing is that you can’t justify it. It doesn’t pretend to be anything useful." 

Rounding out, I'd like to say that I understand the monetary issue. It costs a lot to buy a harness, and rope, and draws, and slings, and a rack, and shoes, and gasoline, and bags, and everything else. But, the wonderful thing about climbing is that it doesn't cost anything to make friends -- if you want to climb something, make a friend who will let you borrow their gear and teach you how to use it. That's the simple solution.

Cheers M8!

First off, no one read this dude... 

Second you got trolled 

Jaren Watson wrote:

Third, some people do have the capacity to read for five minutes straight without needing a break. Admittedly, few of these folks spend much time on MP.

I would say nobody read it, including myself. If you know the theme of this thread then you got about 2 paragraphs in, had a good chuckle, then moved on. If you read the whole thing, please don’t hurt my family, you absolute psycho.

I’d say this thread has Rounded Out

The rocks themselves can be gate keeping.

Lion Forest wrote:

The beauty is that there is nothing stopping you from bolting your local 5 star trad route and seeing how the cookies crumble.  

One’s born every minute. Stop trying to make my thread about climbing.

John Clarkwrote:

Is the lack of permadraws on sport cliffs and traditionalist’s refusal to bolt cracks a form of gatekeeping in climbing? Are less financially able people being intentionally kept from climbing by the high cost of gear required by first ascentionists who refuse to properly and permanently protect “their” climbs?

Nope, trad climbing is honestly a bit of a dying art especially in younger generations. Especially in places where bolting isn't legal or ethical trad is what you have. Climbing isn't an accessible sport anyways so tbh I wouldn't consider that gatekeeping. Plus most climbers are super generous and totally willing to share their gear/teach. Grateful for everyone who has done that for me. 

Desert Rock Sportswrote:

The rocks themselves can be gate keeping.

I think i might shove a random stick and use it as a clip stick…

Addy Swrote:

Nope, trad climbing is honestly a bit of a dying art especially in younger generations. Especially in places where bolting isn't legal or ethical trad is what you have. Climbing isn't an accessible sport anyways so tbh I wouldn't consider that gatekeeping. Plus most climbers are super generous and totally willing to share their gear/teach. Grateful for everyone who has done that for me. 

One’s born every minute.

If you know the theme of this thread then you got about 2 paragraphs in, had a good chuckle . . . One’s born every minute. 

Correction: 51 mins ago, Reno, NV. 

WF WF51wrote:

If you know the theme of this thread then you got about 2 paragraphs in, had a good chuckle . . . One’s born every minute. 

Correction: 51 mins ago, Reno, NV. 

This is the way

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Honestly, I'm surprised we got all the way to page 3 before the boring "kids these days" argument popped up. 

Did you see that Adalayde is 15 yrs old?  She is literally a kid these days.  

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Internalized oppression is real dawg 

I am just as young as Adalayde and I can totally agree with her statement. The ineralized oppression argument is incredibly insulting and towards people wether or not they are being oppressed. Anyways there was never an argument about being "oppressed" and as such it has no place in a counter argument. Additionally tell me Kevin does it really seem appropriate to you to insult someone who is legaly a child

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Honestly, I'm surprised we got all the way to page 3 before the boring "kids these days" argument popped up. 

(Although tbh, Caleb might have mentioned it, idk though because nobody read his post)

Kids born under 35 can't trad climb all they do is skip insane ranting long post and clip bolts