JTree Hobbit Hole Bonfires: Rangers Seeking Information

John Tex wrote:

You mean like this one that is at least 17 years old?

Giving a deadpan reply: yes, Tex.  The official ones are not so large, made of iron with a grill for cooking, and are periodically emptied - I’ve never seen one overflowing with charcoal and ashes.

Bill Lawry wrote:

Thank you, JTLE. 

I don't get the "but we used to be able to do that" from some.  Not terribly long ago, before Joshua Tree was just a Monument, folks used to come into the area a set Joshua Trees on fire just for sport.  Yeah, we used to be able to do that.  But we collectively let it go.

Time to let go of these bonfires outside of official fire rings.  And get the word out when they do occur.

The out of bounds fires were never ok and that’s fine, they should be stopped moving forward but the persecution of a previously ignored “crime” is Orwellian.

A sport climbing ban would surely nip this in the bud.

Tradiban wrote:

The out of bounds fires were never ok and that’s fine, they should be stopped moving forward but the persecution of a previously ignored “crime” is Orwellian.

A sport climbing ban would surely nip this in the bud.

Bouldering*

(Fixed it for ya)

Mediocre Climber wrote:

Looks like the NPS thinks it’s 17 years old. 

So close to being legal then

Joshua Tree Ranger Zach Olson wrote:

You continue to ask good questions and I appreciate that.  

Regarding “immunity” the answer would be:

Maybe, it depends, and I understand the spirit of what you’re asking but I would use different language. Better to have a conversation offline.  

YES organizing these parties is a crime

YES attending these parties is a crime

Who started or planned the fires is a great question.

STOPPING these illegal fires from EVER happening anywhere in the park again is our goal.  

Let’s all work together.

Thanks,

zachary_olson@nps.gov

Thanks.

No one is going to walk into one of these parties and try and shut it down themselves obviously, is there a 24/7 narc line to report parties in progress? I would relish the opportunity.

j tree wrote:

Some further clarification. These gathering were held very responsibly. All trash picked up, very little impact to the area. If you walked by the area the next day, you would never guess what had happened the night before. 

Kinda surprised how gullible mp can be to believe LEOs description of what happened.

Did you take a “Leave No Trace” class and now you think you know more than professional archeologists?  

What a huge, entitled, ego 

Thanks to you, Zachary, and to the NPS. 

Tradiban wrote:

Thanks.

is there a 24/7 narc line to report parties in progress? I would relish the opportunity.

Yes there is.  A fire in progress is an emergency.  

Please call our 24/7 dispatch center at: (909) 383-5651

If you forget that number please call 911 

Joshua Tree Ranger Zach Olson wrote:

Yes there is.  A fire in progress is an emergency.  

Please call our 24/7 dispatch center at: (909) 383-5651

If you forget that number please call 911 

Will do.

Is there an emergency phone around Hidden Valley?

Tradiban wrote:

Will do.

Is there an emergency phone around Hidden Valley?

Yes.  That works too. Pick it up and you’re speaking with our dispatch.  

Mediocre Climber wrote:

I'm calling bullshit on this.  No ranger would ever give this the green light.  Besides being reckless and stupid it's totally out of a ranger's authority.  Even if a superintendent wanted this to happen I'm sure there's still a huge process to go through and accountability. 

Even then they would have to provide equal access to everybody because it's public land.  

This never happened.  I don't know where this story about a ranger "encouraging" this came from but it's not believable.  Total bullshit.  

I have never been to one of these parties. I knew they were going on. I heard they were fun. I never once saw any trash or anything left over from them.

I was told they were originally doing them somewhere (hidden valley campground? Hidden valley? Closer to hvcg than it is now?) but we’re told to move (I assume by LEOs).

LEOs in j tree do a lot of dumb shit. Cops overstep their boundaries and make their own rules often.

I know for a 100% fact that a ranger told a guided outward bound trip it was ok to camp out by Odell and queens mt. Road by that old camp fire ring (you 100% cannot park vans and camp out there btw). To me that was bs. The leaders were told they could camp there in the future too. 

Why people are blindly trusting Zachary when he has not proven his character is beyond me. 

SoCal Choss wrote: Why people are blindly trusting Zachary when he has not proven his character is beyond me. 

What, specifically, should not be believed?

Bill Lawry wrote:

What, specifically, should not be believed?

That a 20 year old fire pit went unnoticed for 20 years next to a "sensitive archeological site".

There's a lot of people in this thread who are upset they don't get invited to parties, and they are demonstrating in this thread exactly why they don't get invited to parties. 

"There's a lot of people in this thread who are upset they don't get invited to parties, and they are demonstrating in this thread exactly why they don't get invited to parties. "

are you a party person? 

I like to party!

John Tex wrote:

That a 20 year old fire pit went unnoticed for 20 years next to a "sensitive archeological site".

There's a lot of people in this thread who are upset they don't get invited to parties, and they are demonstrating in this thread exactly why they don't get invited to parties. 

More like a 40 year old pit....  For the record, I'm not a fan of people doing stupid shit, like having big open fires.  But, in typical ranger fashion they are letting their cheese slide off the cracker.  In my opinion, the cool way to take care of this is to go out and clean up the fake archeological site, then put out a generic notice that campfires not in official fire rings are now a pretty big bust, and then nab the next set of instagram perps.  The rangers going forward with some whacked out witch hunt does nothing for them except for the millionth time make them look like fools.  Police your park if that is your thing.  You rangers have been missing fires out there for better than 40 years.  If it is that big of a burr under your saddle, do some fucking police work.  Stuff like this should be easy to spot at night... look for the giant fire.

John Tex wrote:

That a 20 year old fire pit went unnoticed for 20 years next to a "sensitive archeological site".

I reread what’s been posted. I do see the three words you quoted.  But the rest above, no. “Unmolested” might be a better word than “unnoticed” - ha ha

Have you comprehensively considered why now the push to stop the bon fires? Reportedly an archeological site is involved.  Anything else?  Have you asked them? I doubt the rangers are just doing retribution for not being invited to parties - not that that was your exact meaning about parties.

Russ Walling wrote:

 In my opinion, the cool way to take care of this is to go out and clean up the ... archeological site, then put out a generic notice that campfires not in official fire rings are now a pretty big bust, and then nab the next set of instagram perps.  

That may actually be what is in the works here. What better way to maximize giving folks a heads up than a post like this?

I can just hear the excuses next bon-fire season:  "But we've been doing this for 40 years!"

Doesn't the park have a climbing ranger and climbing stewards that are supposed to keep an eye on the climbing community and be a communication conduit between the NPS and the climbers? Where are they in all of this?  

Cali Kid wrote:

Doesn't the park have a climbing ranger and climbing stewards that are supposed to keep an eye on the climbing community and be a communication conduit between the NPS and the climbers? Where are they in all of this?  

Joshua Tree National Park has not been managed responsibly during the past 20 years.  I have led or soled well over a 1000 routes in the park involving who knows how many days hiking to every corner and remote spot imaginable.  I have never encountered a ranger of any kind out of their truck, parking lot or trail head.  Never.  Activities as the one described in this post, the event someone at the park wants to take issue with all of a sudden, has been happening in this park regularly for 10 years.  The permanent damage to Joshua Trees, rock graffiti, fires, trash, etc. has been noticeable.  The camping chaos has been the worse of any park I have ever spent time in throughout N. America.  There is no real management of the park.  There is little to any enforcement in the park.  I have happily camped outside the park for the past decade and have no plans to ever spend another night in the park.   I spend an inordinate amount of time in most western state National Parks and Monuments as well as the National and Provincial Parks of western Canada, and Jtree is by far the most dysfunctional.  No doubt due to its close proximity to large populations, but mis management over these past decades cannot be ignored.  Why even pretend you care about one fire, one party, when it is so common place? I have never seen park officials trying to stop one.  If the park officials responsible for this park showed one ounce of ambition towards keeping it a wilderness area, I would be all about trying to be a part of the solution and support them.   It would be impossible to convince me at the moment that could be the case.  It is a slum of a park.  I go there to climb once every two years now at most and don't need that trip.  I do it only to see S. Calif friends.  I do feel sympathy for younger generations who will never have an idea of what it was and could have been.

Dow Williams wrote:

Joshua Tree National Park has not been managed responsibly during the past 20 years.  I have led or soled well over a 1000 routes in the park involving who knows how many days hiking to every corner and remote spot imaginable.  I have never encountered a ranger of any kind out of their truck, parking lot or trail head.  Never.  Activities as the one described in this post, the event someone at the park wants to take issue with all of a sudden, has been happening in this park regularly for 10 years.  The permanent damage to Joshua Trees, rock graffiti, fires, trash, etc. has been noticeable.  The camping chaos has been the worse of any park I have ever spent time in throughout N. America.  There is no real management of the park.  There is little to any enforcement in the park.  I have happily camped outside the park for the past decade and have no plans to ever spend another night in the park.   I spend an inordinate amount of time in most western state National Parks and Monuments as well as the National and Provincial Parks of western Canada, and Jtree is by far the most dysfunctional.  No doubt due to its close proximity to large populations, but mis management over these past decades cannot be ignored.  Why even pretend you care about one fire, one party, when it is so common place? I have never seen park officials trying to stop one.  If the park officials responsible for this park showed one ounce of ambition towards keeping it a wilderness area, I would be all about trying to be a part of the solution and support them.   It would be impossible to convince me at the moment that could be the case.  It is a slum of a park.  I go there to climb once every two years now at most and don't need that trip.  I do it only to see S. Calif friends.  I do feel sympathy for younger generations who will never have an idea of what it was and could have been.

I love how you worked in “led or soled”.