What are some ways to get a >2 factor fall

The more "normal" the climbing system the better.

If your answer is "that can't happen," assume that it can and keep thinking. If your answer is "that shouldn't happen," we know. I can think of like five ways to do it, and yes something has typically gone wrong to get there.

james peakwrote:

The more "normal" the climbing system the better.

If your answer is "that can't happen," assume that it can and keep thinking. If your answer is "that shouldn't happen," we know. I can think of like five ways to do it, and yes something has typically gone wrong to get there.

1. On a multi pitch, the leader falls before getting any gear in.

2. Also on a multi pitch, the leader falls, and rips out all of their gear.

3. Climber climbs above their anchor, falls, and takes an ff2 onto their PAS.

4. The climber is belaying their second up, is belaying off their harness, and is far away from the belay. The second gets to the top of the pitch, and, as they are trying to tie a clove hitch, they fall.

Factor -anything- fall?? My assumption is that means a force involving both the climber, and the other end or an intermediate part, of the rope? Topmost gear, or an anchor?

If that's what you mean, then, any event that puts a climber in a bigtime free fall, with a free piece of rope trailing. If that rope somehow catches and holds on something? That's the biggest I can think of, that isn't just a regular cratering. Groundfall gets unsurvivable pretty easily.

I still don't know that higher than 2 is possible, with any still intact setup from pre fall? By definition??

H.

Old lady Hwrote:

If that rope somehow catches and holds on something?

That's a bingo. This has actually contributed to a rope-cutting death in Yosemite (don't have the link), where the rope caught inside a flak mid fall.

And yes, I'm looking for greater-than-factor-two falls.

FF is a simplification of an equation, anything past FF2 violates the assumptions made to simplify the equation, so no you can't mathematically get above FF2. 

You could FF2 and then have the rope slip through the belay device producing a fall length greater than 2 X initial rope length, but again that slippage breaks the assumptions that allow for the very simple fall distance/rope length equation that we use for FF

Via ferreta fall down a cable again can produce a fall length greater than the 2X rope length but again breaks the assumptions to simplify the equation 

Anchor piece ripping causing extension 

Using a screamer in an anchor and having it rip would also produce a fall legnth greater than 2 X rope legnth

Leader is 10 feet above belay, falls with no gear in.   Belayer pulls in 5 feet of slack as they fall.     Result is a 15 foot fall on 5 feet of rope.  Doubt it is possible to pull in 5 feet of slack in that short of a fall so not very likely.

leader fall where a draw, aider, or a PAS etc gets snagged on a piece of gear or rock feature before rope catches fall.  Could be a large fall on a short length of material.  

I think the only way to actually get greater than factor 2 would be for the master point to move down. This could happen if the top piece of an anchor fails, causing a violation of the NE (no extension) part of the SERENE acronym.

Without that, there’s no way for a climber to fall more than 2x the length of rope that is out of the system.

To illustrate this, imagine a 2 FF situation.  Climber climbs 10 feet with no gear, falls, and the rope catches after 20 feet.  

Now, imagine the anchor is a quad on two bolts.  Imagine, for whatever reason, it’s a “saggy” quad.  Now, if on carabiner fails, the quad will self equalize the master point ~1/2 of the saggyness. If the climber climbs 10 feet (from initial master point) and falls without any lead gear, and the carabiner fails, the climber will fall 2 X 10 + (saggyness / 2) feet.  With a 2 foot sag, that’s 21 feet.  21 > 20.

I just realized the rope stretch could effect the FF in the first example, so maybe this is just me having too much coffee today lol. 

Edit to add: after thinking about this a bit more, I think this would also require belaying off the anchor with a grigri like device.

also, obviously not the only.  The post above me is a way more likely case imo 

Ezra Hendersonwrote:

1. On a multi pitch, the leader falls before getting any gear in.

2. Also on a multi pitch, the leader falls, and rips out all of their gear.

3. Climber climbs above their anchor, falls, and takes an ff2 onto their PAS.

4. The climber is belaying their second up, is belaying off their harness, and is far away from the belay. The second gets to the top of the pitch, and, as they are trying to tie a clove hitch, they fall.

Ummm. I think you need to re read the question. 

james peakwrote:

The more "normal" the climbing system the better.

If your answer is "that can't happen," assume that it can and keep thinking. If your answer is "that shouldn't happen," we know. I can think of like five ways to do it, and yes something has typically gone wrong to get there.

It would help to know why you are asking.

TJ Bindseilwrote:

Now, imagine the anchor is a quad on two bolts.  Imagine, for whatever reason, it’s a “saggy” quad.  Now, if on carabiner fails, the quad will self equalize the master point ~1/2 of the saggyness...

Yep! This generalizes a bit too. If the anchor material itself is dynamic this is still <2 factor on (hybrid) dynamic material. But a static anchor material means the longer fall is absorbed by just the rope.

So another simple way to up the effective fall factor is to take your factor 2 on a static/dynamic combo. A factor 2 fall on a half dyneema half nylon leash* is an effective factor 4 on the nylon.

* e.g. a length of rope tied to a dyneema sling

A5 fall.

Or, if you dare.... the legendary A6+ fall. Don't even begin to imagine the horror!!1!eleven!

james peakwrote:

Yep! This generalizes a bit too. If the anchor material itself is dynamic this is still <2 factor on (hybrid) dynamic material. But a static anchor material means the longer fall is absorbed by just the rope.

So another simple way to up the effective fall factor is to take your factor 2 on a static/dynamic combo. A factor 2 fall on a half dyneema half nylon leash is an effective factor 4 on the nylon.

I am also curious what you mean by a static dynamic combo.  Are you saying a situation where the belayer is belaying off harness, while tethered to the wall with two tethers, one dynamic (ie clove the rope) and one static? Or is there some 50/50 hybrid material?

Via ferrata is a place for FF of >2, if falling from the top of a steel cable to the bottom (let’s say a 5m vertical cable) with a 1m lanyard. So the climber falls from +1m (max lanyard), down the 5m cable, and then to the bottom of their 1m lanyard; a 7m fall on a 1m “rope”.

TJ Bindseilwrote:

I think the only way to actually get greater than factor 2 would be for the master point to move down. This could happen if the top piece of an anchor fails, causing a violation of the NE (no extension) part of the SERENE acronym.

Without that, there’s no way for a climber to fall more than 2x the length of rope that is out of the system.

To illustrate this, imagine a 2 FF situation.  Climber climbs 10 feet with no gear, falls, and the rope catches after 20 feet.  

Now, imagine the anchor is a quad on two bolts.  Imagine, for whatever reason, it’s a “saggy” quad.  Now, if on carabiner fails, the quad will self equalize the master point ~1/2 of the saggyness. If the climber climbs 10 feet (from initial master point) and falls without any lead gear, and the carabiner fails, the climber will fall 2 X 10 + (saggyness / 2) feet.  With a 2 foot sag, that’s 21 feet.  21 > 20.

Umm… no.  What you just described is a less than ff2 through a quad as first piece if belaying off harness. Then, a gear failure after said

Or you meant the belay device is directly on the quad.  Then it could be a ff2 before the gear failure.  But, only if belaying with a gri gri as that is the only device that I know of that can catch a ff2.

Or you meant belaying off the harness while tethered to a quad, rope not clipped through any gear on the quad. Nonetheless, if you have your stopper knots two feet apart on a quad, you’ve got other problems. 

Just thought of another one:

A leader on a multipitch is being belayed directly from the anchor on an ATC and has yet to place gear, and the follower forgets to tie in direct; they fall from the belay ledge, holding onto the brake strand, thereby pulling the leader from their position 5m above and directly to the anchor. The leader takes a 5m fall on a 0m rope, and the follower burns their palms off as they fall the full length of the rope downwards (but not FF>2).

^^ Nasty.

>FF2=YGD

Have another:

Leader and follower are simul-climbing on alpine terrain with 15m of a 50m rope between them, the remainder coiled over each of their shoulders respectively. The leader is careful to wind the rope around rock features to provide running protection, but as the party reaches a snowy ridge, they decide to go on ahead and use the “I’ll dive the other way” strategy.

All well and good but that the cornice they are standing upon releases low to one side, tipping both climbers down one face as it releases. The climbers (and icy cornice) are in free-fall until the rope catches a robust gendarme below; each climber experiences a 200m fall onto a 15m rope section as it hits the gendarme, and miraculously, does not sever.

200m fall onto X/15m of rope, where X is the fraction of rope towards each climber, divided between them by where it landed on the gendarme. 

Is this a definition of Factor 2 fall??

One climber anchors at the end of a pitch. Second climber starts up next pitch. Goes 15 feet, places no pro. Takes a fall. Falls by the belayer and down to the end of the payed-out rope. The fall is 30 feet with 15 feet of rope between leader and belayer resulting in factor 2 fall. 

Not sure this qualifies but I’ve seen it happen while sport climbing.  Climber falls, goes past top draw. And as he is falling the next quick draw clips in the climbers leg loop. Climber comes to a very abrupt stop and the nose of the carabiner  breaks off but still holds the climber.  Overall climber probably fell 10 on to a foot long draw.  So a FF of 10.  Though I’m sure the rope did take a little bit of the impact but it didn’t look like much.

Alois Smrzwrote:

Is this a definition of Factor 2 fall??

One climber anchors at the end of a pitch. Second climber starts up next pitch. Goes 15 feet, places no pro. Takes a fall. Falls by the belayer and down to the end of the payed-out rope. The fall is 30 feet with 15 feet of rope between leader and belayer resulting in factor 2 fall. 

Yes,

FF =  length of fall ÷ amount of rope between belayer and climber 

Simple formula