OK Hive mind I need a new belay device

Vince Buffaliniwrote:

Boomer ass post on par with your typical bullshit, Frank. You sure do love posting online for an old crusty dude. Maybe you're actually Gen Z born in the wrong year. 

I hope you're able to work through this difficult situation. Best of luck.

Vince Buffaliniwrote:

Boomer ass post on par with your typical bullshit, Frank. You sure do love posting online for an old crusty dude. Maybe you're actually Gen Z born in the wrong year. 

I think he was joking, Vince.

Nathan Doylewrote:

I think he was joking, Vince.

If commenting "You need to be able to make these decisions by yourself. Glad I could help." to someone asking for belay device recommendations is Frank's idea of a joke, I would have actually went harsher with my reply, because thats just an insult to comedy in general. Really wouldn't expect anything less from a dude who probably uses "woke" as a noun, verb, and adjective daily. At least he'll always have Dennis Miller.    

I appreciate all the attention, Vinny. You make me feel special.

Vince Buffaliniwrote:

If commenting "You need to be able to make these decisions by yourself. Glad I could help." to someone asking for belay device recommendations is Frank's idea of a joke, I would have actually went harsher with my reply, because thats just an insult to comedy in general. Really wouldn't expect anything less from a dude who probably uses "woke" as a noun, verb, and adjective daily. At least he'll always have Dennis Miller.    

Jokes aside, there is some truth to what Frank, said, actually. At least some food for thought, especially if one wants to continue to play this climbing game into old age, like the Boomers have.

But you seem pretty angry right now, so to steal one from Frank's play book, good luck with that.

Come on now folks. Frank made a slightly dickish response so I made one back at what I felt was an apropriate level of  slightly dickishness. I've read enough of his comments get a feel of his persona and I didn't really care.

Of course it is my decision make but I see no harm in gathering abit of opionion from others before I make it. After nearly 30 years of climbing I know both what I want but also that its easy to fall into the trap of thinking that what you've always done must be 'the way'(*). It was in part due to reading these fora that I got more expossed to the American style of things and first experimented with direct belays for instance. Earlier this week I took 2 guys from my local wall on their first trad trip, after teaching them the basics I made the point that there is always more to learn.

The comments have been of interest to me, some have confirmed my previous thoughts and others have opened me up to considering other options e.g the Mammut Norwand Alpine wasn't a device I was familiar with.

* Just as well or I'd still be using a camp stitch plate with a sodding great spring on it!

Edit: Added the 'slightlys' so as not to over dramatise.

Jack Bushwaywrote:

I genuinely don’t understand why so many people report so many bad things about the giga jul. mega jul I get, but I love my giga. It’s like a grigri and an atc in one, which is what I used to bring up multis. Now I save over a half a pound off my harness, still have assisted lead belay (which I think is sketch to not have), nice guide mode, and can rap with two strands without a prusik. It’s ideal. You just need to find the right carabiner for the assisted breaking that works well with your rope.

I think the giga-jul is the only jul worth owning.    My problem with the giga-jul is for single rope climbing is that there are several ways to feed the rope into the device only two of which works well for any particular application.  To enumerate the ways.

slider in autolock mode, device facing forward, rope in left slot

slider in autolock mode, device facing forward, rope in right slot

slider in autolock mode, device turned around, rope in left slot

slider in autolock mode, device turned around, rope in right slot

slider in friction mode, device facing forward, rope in left slot

slider in friction mode, device facing forward, rope in right slot

slider in friction mode, device turned around, rope in left slot

slider in friction mode, device turned around, rope in right slot

Combine this with my poor close vision and I often got the device threaded less than optimally which generally caused it to feed poorly.  Even threading the left slot and belaying on the right side causes the device to grab all the time.  I still use it occasionally because it is smaller than the alpine up. The giga-jul allows my rope to slowly creep while rappelling; the alpine up does not.  The function of the alpine up is much better.   Somewhere on mountain project Jim Titt has test results showing the micro and mega juls generate inadequate friction.     The micro and mega jul do not create enough friction in the case of a severe fall because the carabiner is already up against the stop.   Both the giga-jul and alpine up and most other devices of this sort can pull the carabiner further in the slot creating progressively more friction.  

EDIT:  I used the recommended edelrid carabiners with the juls.

EDIT 2: Using double/twins reduced the error space significantly.  

climber patwrote:

 The micro and mega jul do not create enough friction in the case of a severe fall because the carabiner is already up against the stop.   Both the giga-jul and alpine up and most other devices of this sort can pull the carabiner further in the slot creating progressively more friction.  

EDIT:  I used the recommended edelrid carabiners with the juls.

EDIT 2: Using double/twins reduced the error space significantly.  

I've used the Micro and Mega Jul plenty and caught many falls which have yanked me off the ground. The auto-lock feature always provided enough friction to arrest the fall.  

I carry a GriGri and a GigaJul. It suits me well. It was a GriGri and a ATC Guide before that, so the extra weight of carrying two devices doesn't bother me; I don't even notice it. I leave the GriGri home for most alpine pursuits, however. 

I do enough development work where having my GriGri handy is nice. I trust it, but I still tie cat knots, because I move up and down a lot. I realize I could probably just use the GigaJul at this point, but I'm accustomed to hanging on the GriGri and haven't switched over 100%, so I just carry both.

I own a Alpine Up, but haven't really used it, as I got it right before I got my GriGri and my partners were pro-GriGri so that's the direction I went; along with the lighter atc for rappelling. I've been wanting to revisit it, but I suspect the GigaJul replaces it for the most part. I mean, I wouldn't really want carry a GriGri and an Alpine Up.

Nathan Doylewrote:

I carry a GriGri and a GigaJul. It suits me well. It was a GriGri and a ATC Guide before that, so the extra weight of carrying two devices doesn't bother me; I don't even notice it.

Exactly my method. and 10mm is pretty beefy these days. You might want to reevaluate your rope choices.
I have 8.8 triple rated for more alpine. 9.2 for sport cragging (both 70 and 80M).   9.5 for places like J Tree with rougher rock.  Gri Gri great for belaying with all those. Gigajul great for rappels with all those.  Use one of your 1/2 ropes if you need an extra rope for raps.   

Adam Pequettewrote:

I've used the Micro and Mega Jul plenty and caught many falls which have yanked me off the ground. The auto-lock feature always provided enough friction to arrest the fall.  

Being yanked off the ground is not the definition of a severe fall.  These falls are less than fall factor one.  

Consider a fall factor two fall on a multipitch climb where your motion is stopped by your attachment to the anchor.  The micro and mega juls will not perform well in this circumstance. 

climber patwrote:

Being yanked off the ground is not the definition of a severe fall.  These falls are less than fall factor one.  

Consider a fall factor two fall on a multipitch climb where your motion is stopped by your attachment to the anchor.  The micro and mega juls will not perform well in this circumstance. 

The Grigri slips at 3.4KN if you are holding the brake rope.  That is way below fall factor 2 territory.  Slipping is a good thing.  I have climbed for 33 years.  Ice, mountain, trad, and sport.  I have used a regular ATC style device for 31 of those years and caught every fall.   A Micro/Mega Jul with a break hand has more friction than a standard tube device.  It also has more than a munter hitch which many people do directly off the anchor in multi-pitch scenarios.  

Adam Pequettewrote:

The Grigri slips at 3.4KN if you are holding the brake rope.  That is way below fall factor 2 territory.  Slipping is a good thing.  I have climbed for 33 years.  Ice, mountain, trad, and sport.  I have used a regular ATC style device for 31 of those years and caught every fall.   A Micro/Mega Jul with a break hand has more friction than a standard tube device.  It also has more than a munter hitch which many people do directly off the anchor in multi-pitch scenarios.  

Here is a very long thread with actual data embedded in it.  Every climber should read and understand the limitatoons and risks associated with various belay device. 

Belay device thread

BTW I have climbed for 45 years and caught every fall too. 

Have you considered just using your GriGri for single pitch trad, and get something like the Alpine ATC for your 8.5s? That way you're still only buying one device, they're both being used with their ideal rope diameter, and you don't have to compromise on a device that works for both 8.5 twins and 10mm singles.

Rasputin NLNwrote:

Have you considered just using your GriGri for single pitch trad, and get something like the Alpine ATC for your 8.5s? That way you're still only buying one device, they're both being used with their ideal rope diameter, and you don't have to compromise on a device that works for both 8.5 twins and 10mm singles.

I have but the thing is I don’t actually like the grigri for lead belaying that much, I put up with it at the wall because I do so little of it, local wall not got much lead it’s more tope ropey and I tend to mainly boulder there anyway.

For outdoors whilst I’m looking into assisted devices I would prefer one that has a manual mode as well for situations where a more dynamic approach is needed.

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

The hip belay lead and munter for top belaying works for me, super light 

Funny, I often do the opposite, hip belay for the second and a munter for the leader.

Neil Bwrote:

I don’t actually like the grigri for lead belaying that much

Can you elaborate why?

Not being critical - genuinely curious. 

grug gwrote:

Can you elaborate why?

Not being critical - genuinely curious. 

Sure, it’s just a subjective thing I don’t find it smooth to go from quick payout when they clip the pro to taking in as they move past it for one. That I don’t do it very often is a big part of that, most of my belaying is on half ropes, but I’m sure with more practice I’d find it more natural. I came pretty late to the ABD revolution.

Probably going to stick with something more traditional for the halves. Still considering something assisted for casual cragging on a single.

I've not tried many ABD devices, but I'm very happy with my JUL2 for sport.