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ErikaNW wrote:

Hooks are actually quite expensive, and it is a PITA to be having to replace them.

Are they? https://climbtech.com/products/top-anchor-hook/ How many AL biners would've worn thru instead, 50? It's a PITA to have to replace them on routes you don't intend to climb, otherwise maybe climbers should learn how to use a crescent wrench?

reboot wrote:

Are they? https://climbtech.com/products/top-anchor-hook/ How many AL biners would've worn thru instead, 50? It's a PITA to have to replace them on routes you don't intend to climb, otherwise maybe climbers should learn how to use a crescent wrench?

You make a good point and have pretty much convinced me to change sides on this. If one person was buying all the carabiners or mussies. Wearing out the mussies would be a no brainer and obviously the cheapest thing to wear. The complication comes with the fact that the people wearing out the mussies aren't the ones who are buying and replacing them but I'm still thinking that just accepting the wear on the mussies is really the right way to go.

At the crag that I was climbing at today a two person team was lowering and top roping off of the mussies. With my new view on this in mind I never said a word.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

If you own the mussies you can do what ever you like.

When I go to a new crag, I start out knowing I don't own the mussies (or other fixed hardware) so I will err on the side of caution.

Seems pretty simple. The out of doors is not the fucking gym.

Yep, on routes I didn't put up I don't TR through the hooks.  On my own routes I do it all the time and don't really care what others do.  I know the gear and when it needs replacing I'll replace it.  The exception is ASCA anchors, I won't TR through donated gear.  

Victor Creazzi wrote:

You make a good point and have pretty much convinced me to change sides on this. If one person was buying all the carabiners or mussies. Wearing out the mussies would be a no brainer and obviously the cheapest thing to wear. The complication comes with the fact that the people wearing out the mussies aren't the ones who are buying and replacing them but I'm still thinking that just accepting the wear on the mussies is really the right way to go.

At the crag that I was climbing at today a two person team was lowering and top roping off of the mussies. With my new view on this in mind I never said a word.

I've spent a fair amount of money buying mussys, as well as contributing to the ASCA.

I've also carried a bunch of mussys up to crags, adding 5-15 extra pounds to my pack to do so.

I've also spent parts of my climbing day installing those mussys.

Explain to me why I should keep doing this if other climbers won't make the minimal effort to toprope and lower with their own gear?

Explain to me why I should keep doing this if other climbers won't make the minimal effort to toprope and lower with their own gear?

You shouldn't.

I was totally in the 'put the wear on your own gear' camp until I thought about Reboot's post above. Reboot estimated 50 carabiners worn out to each mussy. I suspect that this number would actually be much higher. So from purely an ecological standpoint, we  should be wearing steel hooks over aluminum carabiners. Granted in a fair world the burden of replacing the hooks should fall on the people who are contributing to the wear.

As a thought experiment, what would happen if no volunteers replaced the hooks? At some point people would start leaving carabiners or carrying replacement hooks and hardware in their packs. Judging from the strengths of the severely  worn hooks in the 'How Not To' video that I posted I don't see a safety hazard of not replacing the hooks until back up hardware started appearing at the anchor.

Local crag has mostly hooks on anchors these days. The recommendation from developers and frequent locals/stewards is that its fine for a party of two to lower off, and then TR through the hooks if they're doing 1 person leads, 1 TRs. Large parties or TR gangs are encouraged to set up their own gear until the last lowers off.

On a separate point I can't imagine why a developer or someone doing route maintenance would put hooks at a midway anchor/multipitch. That's a recipe for disaster.

Victor Creazzi wrote:

I was totally in the 'put the wear on your own gear' camp until I thought about Reboot's post above. Reboot estimated 50 carabiners worn out to each mussy. I suspect that this number would actually be much higher. So from purely an ecological standpoint, we  should be wearing steel hooks over aluminum carabiners. Granted in a fair world the burden of replacing the hooks should fall on the people who are contributing to the wear.

As a thought experiment, what would happen if no volunteers replaced the hooks? At some point people would start leaving carabiners or carrying replacement hooks and hardware in their packs. Judging from the strengths of the severely  worn hooks in the 'How Not To' video that I posted I don't see a safety hazard of not replacing the hooks until back up hardware started appearing at the anchor.

The cost benefit analysis only works if all 50 of those aluminum carabiners got replaced due to wear. 

I would bet that the vast majority of topropers never climb enough to retire even one biner.

Obviously a place like Rifle is different.

Worn mussys may be more than strong enough, but they develop sharp edges which present a much more dangerous failure mode.

Finally, what I expect to happen, is that folks who believe in stewardship will get more and more disappointed in other entitled climbers, stop volunteering and conditions will deteriorate to whatever is the lowest acceptable standard.

Already you see developers keeping their areas secret, fewer people volunteering for trail days (especially compared to the increased number of active outdoor climbers) and MP posters unashamedly proclaiming their intention to TR through fixed gear.

I F wrote:

On a separate point I can't imagine why a developer or someone doing route maintenance would put hooks at a midway anchor/multipitch. That's a recipe for disaster.

How so?  There are still the actual bolts and/or chains attaching the mussy hooks to the wall, right?  

curt86iroc wrote:

anyone have data on how fast steel hooks actually wear? maybe some real world examples?

BCC pulled steel hooks off a route at Catslab that were 80+% worn from about a year and a half of use.

Seriously Moderate Climber wrote:

BCC pulled steel hooks off a route at Catslab that were 80+% worn from about a year and a half of use.

I’d love to see some pics of those.  

There are so many variables that would determine how fast or slow they would wear out.   I’ve had some Mussys on a route for several years that I use to TR through and they don’t show any sign of wear.   If it were an area like Indian Creek with fine sandy soil I would expect them to wear much faster.   

Already you see developers keeping their areas secret,

This should be SOP. It's rather idiotic to approach it any other way. Its not a housing development, nor commercial real estate.

abandon moderation wrote:

From https://safeclimbing.org/lower-off-initiative (link provided by Anna in this thread)

...

Thanks for the PSA! I'll be sure to always set up my own TR anchor over mussy in the future as I'm a rule follower, sometimes.

That's what I had been doing forever until very recently when I opened my mind a little after hearing a different view from a seasoned route developer and an experienced climber. The truth is despite the more relaxed view (okay to TR off mussy), I'd say most of mussy hooks are not set up ideally for that anyway. A little extension can help direct the rope better, reduce rope drag for belaying, and reduce wear and tear on rope (esp. if it rubs on rock without extension). I have no problem going back to sticking to the "good" practice recommended by ASCA.

One question though... I have found that sometimes, clipping a biner in the bolt hanger or the chain link above the mussy puts the biner in a non-ideal angle. If there are no other parties sharing anchor, we are not climbing above the anchor, is it okay to clip the TR anchor biner in the mussy hook? I almost never clip biner to biner (was: metal to metal), but sometimes, it just seems to best align the biner and provide most extension (when desired), so I wonder about it from time to time.

Seriously Moderate Climber wrote:

BCC pulled steel hooks off a route at Catslab that were 80+% worn from about a year and a half of use.

wow. i'd love to hear more about this.  which route and who pulled them?

Mei pronounced as May wrote:

I almost never clip metal to metal, but sometimes, it just seems to best align the biner and provide most extension (when desired), so I wonder about it from time to time.

Why? It's a non-issue.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

The cost benefit analysis only works if all 50 of those aluminum carabiners got replaced due to wear. 

I would bet that the vast majority of topropers never climb enough to retire even one biner.

Also a good point. So if the wear is spread thin enough over enough peoples gear nothing ever needs to be replaced. An ecological 'free lunch' so to speak.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

This should be SOP. It's rather idiotic to approach it any other way. Its not a housing development, nor commercial real estate.

Why is it idiotic? Many developers want their crags open to the public, either out of philosophical reasons or just because they want more people to enjoy their routes. Also it's often inevitable that at some point it will get posted on MP, so many developers prefer to be the one to do it so that they can control that process and discuss potential access issues and such.

Mei (pronounced as May) wrote:

 I almost never clip metal to metal, but sometimes, it just seems to best align the biner and provide most extension (when desired), so I wonder about it from time to time.

This metal to metal thing comes from the old times before quickdraws; if you clip many non locking biners together they can easily undo themselves, but this happens when you clip like three or four or more together, not just two. The "no metal to metal" thing is a misunderstanding of rules old timers came up with for a context that doesn't really exist anymore.

Ricky Harline wrote:

This metal to metal thing comes from the old times before quickdraws; if you clip many non locking biners together they can easily undo themselves, but this happens when you clip like three or four or more together, not just two. The "no metal to metal" thing is a misunderstanding of rules old timers came up with for a context that doesn't really exist anymore.

Sorry, I realize I said it wrong. After all, clipping into bolt hanger or chain link is also metal to metal. I meant to say biner to biner, i.e. biner to another mechanism that can open (e.g. another biner, or mussy hook in this context). But point taken. I don't worry too much about clipping a TR anchor into mussy hooks for safety if other choices are not ideal as it's static downward pull, but just checking if that violates anyone's "rule".   

abandon moderation wrote:

IMO best practice is to not clip/weight biners through surfaces that get rappelled/lowered on. It (theoretically) can mar or put burrs on the surfaces that are otherwise smooth from ropes. Slightly different but same idea: if you look at the inside of quickdraw biners, it'll be clear which end touches the bolt and which end touches the rope because the bolt side is usually kinda mangled. This topic is debated as well and I don't feel strongly about it; chances are that the steel damages the aluminum, not vice-versa. 

Personally I always clip through the bolts and/or chains. Sometimes I'll push the chains up and clip my draws under them on the bolt if that gives a better alignment although it's more of a pain to clean that way.

As always though if something actually seems unsafe the "best practice" way, do it the safe way. If I thought the gate was going to get pushed open or something, I'd just clip the mussy hook/rap ring.

I’m sorry, how do you protect sport climbs if you don’t clip metal to metal?

abandon moderation wrote:

You do clip metal to metal, that's not what my post says.

On quickdraws there's a dedicated rope side and a dedicated bolt side. If you clip them consistently that way and look at the inside of the biners, you'll see that the bolt side biner is marred from falls etc while the rope side is perfectly smooth.

Given the choice I'm gonna put my rope through a smooth surface... the rope isn't going to explode if you do it backwards, after all on my alpine draws I clip either end indiscriminately, but one side is more abrasive than the other.

Why does it matter?