How many years does it really take to climb an 8a?

MattH wrote:

That's not how this works. They're not saying that it supports their argument, they're saying it doesn't support yours. 

Except it does in this situation, any data exhibiting data supports my argument that anyone can climb 8a. Especially when the numbers are as high as 40% have already climbed 8a. 

I can show you 100s of blue birds, but that doesn't mean every bird is blue or capable of becoming blue. It's neither sufficient evidence for nor against the claim that every bird is blue.

Apples to oranges. It’s not genetically possible for a Turkey to be a blue bird. It is genetically possible for any person to climb 8a, barring any physical disabilities whether congenital or otherwise (such as injuries like mentioned in the post above). What the people arguing on the opposite side are really trying to say, in my opinion, is that climbing 8a is/is not likely for anyone. It is obviously easier/harder for some individuals to achieve 8a, but to say it is impossible for some and not others just doesn’t seem true to me.

I am still interested in hearing what factors would prohibit someone, without physical disabilities previously mentioned, from climbing 8a. I either missed an answer or it hasn’t been provided. 

Annec-data success stories from climbing coaches is not sufficient evidence. It ignores program dropouts and the sampling bias of enrollment.

I agree, however, it still provides evidence of people who climbed 8a. It is a starting point, not the definitive argument. 

People who are predisposed to be capable of 8a are more likely to want to enroll and be physically able to begin and complete a training plan toward 8a.

I would disagree with this. Individuals “predisposed” to be capable of 8a, by their very nature would not need a training plan, as they are already predisposed.

Does 'everyone' include those with disabilities? What about joint problems? What about poor tendon health/work capacity? Poor motor control? Or is 'everyone' short for 'everyone in their early 20s of sound physical condition'?

First off, we are discussing “anyone” and not “everyone”. That is a distinction we need to make as everyone implies even those who do not climb, train, etc. We have already addressed this as well and said that that physical disabilities, whether it be congenital or developed (such as a separated shoulder that leads to limited ROM) are not included in the “anyone” umbrella.

Sam M wrote:

It pisses me off, I think, because sometimes the argument about the effectiveness of training, sounds the same as the argument about the effectiveness of prayer.

When I was a good Christian boy, I was told if you prayed diligently and tried to live without sin, your prayers would be answered and God would speak to you and give you success and meaning in life.

If the result was "none of my prayers come true and it feels like I'm just speaking to myself" the reply is "well, YOU must doing it wrong..."

God has a plan for me, Lattice has a plan for me, maybe the universe is random and trying hard doesn't guarantee anything? 

Not to say that you can't change anything - I agree with the guy who said "The harder I try, the luckier I get". 

I think you’re missing the point of those arguing the effectiveness of training, and maybe they are missing the point of this thread. First off, you cannot measure the effectiveness of prayer, per se. You can. however, create and replicate a metric to measure the effectiveness of a specific training protocol. There is also actual data showing the effectiveness of certain training protocols. Eva Lopez has multiple published papers, I believe, showing the effectiveness of small edge training in regards to tendon/finger strength, not grades. Steve Bechtel does as well I think. Someone correct me if I’m wrong and/or link them if you have them readily available. 

This is also to say that training effectiveness isn’t measured by grades. It has metrics used in a way that can be measured without bias….unlike a route, which is why there is such contention in threads of this nature. 

‘Prince’ you say that you haven’t seen mention of factors that contribute to individuals not being able to achieve 8a, however a number of those factors have in fact been described in previous posts. Though, it seems that you may actually be using those factors to narrow your definition of who is included in the ‘anyone’ category, thereby making it pretty meaningless.

Also you say that those who are ‘predisposed’ to climb 8a don’t need a training plan, or at least a ‘commercial’ one. What is the basis of that opinion? I disagree with that opinion. From my, admittedly anecdotal, observations, it appears that many of those who have set a goal to climb 8a—and beyond, do utilize such plans—some self-created, some through coaches, some by following  commercial options.

Losers always want to find a justification, any justification, why they cannot do it. It is never their own fault. It is never their own lack of dedication. They always want to ascribe their failure to something that is outside of their control. They are defeatist by nature. That is why they are shitty climbers.

It is freaking 8a. The excuses people give here are mind-boggling. Just excuse after excuse.

I have seen more than enough people to achieve V8 in two years from nil. 5.12s are casual, fun warm ups. 5.13s are hard, but not that hard. Anyone put in enough "intelligent" effort can get to V8 and 8a. The operative word is intelligent. The problem is most people are just plain stupid. Heck, give me anyone, I can turn them into V8 and 8a climbers in two years, provided they live with me and do exactly everything I tell him to do. I guarantee they can get to V8 and 8a. It is not even that hard. V8 and 8a, it is laughable people here are arguing about V8 and 8a and how difficult they are. Just a bunch of incompetents.

Jake Foster wrote:

Losers always want to find a justification, any justification, why they cannot do it. It is never their own fault. It is never their own lack of dedication. They always want to ascribe their failure to something that is outside of their control. They are defeatist by nature. That is why they are shitty climbers.

It is freaking 8a. The excuses people give here are mind-boggling. Just excuse after excuse.

I have seen more than enough people to achieve V8 in two years from nil. 5.12s are casual, fun warm ups. 5.13s are hard, but not that hard. Anyone put in enough "intelligent" effort can get to V8 and 8a. The operative word is intelligent. The problem is most people are just plain stupid. Heck, give me anyone, I can turn them into V8 and 8a climbers in two years, provided they live with me and do exactly everything I tell him to do. I guarantee they can get to V8 and 8a. It is not even that hard. V8 and 8a, it is laughable people here are arguing about V8 and 8a and how difficult they are. Just a bunch of incompetents.

Will you provide service for free? Could use a few belays

Alan Rubin wrote:

‘Prince’ you say that you haven’t seen mention of factors that contribute to individuals not being able to achieve 8a, however a number of those factors have in fact been described in previous posts. Though, it seems that you may actually be using those factors to narrow your definition of who is included in the ‘anyone’ category, thereby making it pretty meaningless.

From my initial post I specifically said anyone whose main goal is to climb 8a can do it, with the exception of those with physical disabilities. So please explain how I’m using it to narrow my search. Additionally what factors are those? Like I said, I may have missed them in a post, but I have yet to see them. Your post about someone suffering from an injured tendon or overuse is the closest thing I’ve seen to being a valid “limiting factor” but I would just as easily argue that data suggests people can easily recover from a tendon/pulley injury if following the correct recovery ‘protocol’. Those who do not would be the significant minority and therefore be an outlier on any dataset. Additionally your entire counter-argument is based on the hypothetical outliers and the assumption that a large contingent of 8a climbers sustain a traumatic injury they cannot recover from, which is simply not true. Where is the data that says you re more likely to get injured the 'stronger' you climb, as you stated?

And as far as the psycological/mental side of it, I specifically mentioned that my statement only applies to those whose main goal in to climb 8a and are dedicated to climbing. Of course someone unmotivated or goes to the gym and doesn't try hard but once or twice in an entire session isn't going to climb 8a...again your entire counterargument is based on outliers and anomalies such as ‘life factors, and ‘stopper’ injuries

Also you say that those who are ‘predisposed’ to climb 8a don’t need a training plan, or at least a ‘commercial’ one. What is the basis of that opinion? I disagree with that opinion. 

It is not an opinion lol if someone is already predisposed to climb 8a then they should not need a training plan as they are already predisposed. Does predisposed not mean that they are likely or susceptible to doing something (without the assistance of an outside source, for-lack-of-better-words)? Those that are not predisposed would be the ones requiring a training plan to achieve whatever it is they are not predisposed too…

Here is how I am viewing this point. If I’m predisposed to a something like disease, for a commonly used example, and I do nothing at all outside the norm, like preventative  actions, then can’t we assume that the probability of me getting that disease is likely? If we use this with climbing and someone is “predisposed to climbing 8a”, then why are you going to suddenly then assume that they are now unlikely to climb 8a? In the climbing example, a training plan would represent something outside the norm.

From my, admittedly anecdotal, observations, it appears that many of those who have set a goal to climb 8a—and beyond, do utilize such plans—some self-created, some through coaches, some by following commercial options.

And my argument is that any physically able individual that follows through on those plans will achieve that goal, barring any physical disabilities as mentioned before. It just baffles me how you don’t think the average person is so incapable of climbing 8a. I guess I just struggle with a legitimate limiting factor that can’t be addressed in order to do 8a. Lack of mobility? Stretch. Lack of strength? Weight train. Weak finger. Hangboard. Lack of energy? Diet, sleep, etc. 

Provided the average person has unlimited resources in terms of time, energy, money and youth I’m sure they can reach an advanced level in any discipline. How much of your life you give up to get it will vary wildly and those other factors are what makes it feel impossible to many in practice.

If you’ve had the combination of genetics, resources, health and motivation to climb 8a then bully for you. I truly believe that is is an above average achievement. Just realize that for many reasons that may be out of their control a large portion of the population may never join you even if they really want to.

If you feel the need to flex about how quickly an 8a RP came together for you this thread seems as good of a place as any to do it.

These arguments always seem to boil down to "Provided the person in question has the attributes that lead to climbing 8a, they will climb 8a". 

Phil Sakievich wrote:

Provided the average person has unlimited resources in terms of time, energy, money and youth I’m sure they can reach an advanced level in any discipline. How much of your life you give up to get it will vary wildly and those other factors are what makes it feel impossible to many in practice.

If you’ve had the combination of genetics, resources, health and motivation to climb 8a then bully for you. I truly believe that is is an above average achievement. Just realize that for many reasons that may be out of their control a large portion of the population may never join you even if they really want to.

If you feel the need to flex about how quickly an 8a RP came together for you this thread seems as good of a place as any to do it.

This is where stupidity comes in.

There is no "provided", nothing except one. It must be provided that the person really really wants it. The vast majority of climbers have no interest in climbing hard. You know who you are. You are the ones when you go to the crag or the gym, only jump on routes you know for 100 certainty you can onsight, aka, climbing well below your limit. You are the ones who must climb 10 routes per session. Need to get the volume in man. There is nothing wrong with that. You do what you like. But you cannot be uninterested, lazy, uncommitted, unmotivated, not hungry enough to get to 8a.

And resource, what resource. All you need is 10 hours per week in the gym. It can be as low as 6 hours and at most 15 hours. Do you know how much pro climbers train? Go listen to a video with Jan Hojer. He talks about he only trains 15 hours per week. That is all you freaking need. What unlimited resource. That is pure stupidity.

Climbing 8a is only above average?   

TBH, most people have the physical capacity to climb 14a, and those who haven't done so are lacking in motivation and discipline and probably training badly too.

Dane B wrote:

Climbing 8a is only above average?   

Yes. 

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the anyone-regardless-of-genetics crowd is going to win this argument. Outliers such as physical disabilities aside, obviously. 

And the "99th level troll" prize goes to Prince Kitty Hatr.
She is absolutely right.
If we define any person who failed to climb 8a as a person with physical disability, we can conclude that anybody (except people with physical disabilities) can climb 8a.

Jake Foster wrote:

This is where stupidity comes in.

There is no "provided", nothing except one. It must be provided that the person really really wants it. […]

And resource, what resource. All you need is 10 hours per week in the gym. […]

you don’t seem to understand what defines resources.

I’ll agree with you that for me right now there is more I could do. Im actually more on track to climb 8a than I’ve ever been in my life. I might do it, but honestly that is not what is driving me right now.

I sure as hell don’t have 10 hours for the gym each week right now. Maybe 6 on a good week. I compensate with other resources (lattice training plan, home wall so I can climb at 5am, etc)

In spirit I agree with you that you have to really want it and make sacrifices to get it. No doubt your journey to 8a and beyond is something that was hard and you should take pride in. My point is that the scale of the sacrifice is not the same for everyone. For others to get it they may have to want it even more and make even more sacrifices than you did due to their circumstances.

In the limit that climbing becomes more important than everything else in your life then I 100% agree with you. 

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

Yes. 

I disagree. It must put you in the top few percent of all climbers. Most people are too lazy to apply themselves to any one thing in life to get to an elite level. I think 8a is an elite level and far from average ultimately 

What is 8a in YDS again?

Dane B wrote:

I disagree. It must put you in the top few percent of all climbers. Most people are too lazy to apply themselves to any one thing in life to get to an elite level. I think 8a is an elite level and far from average ultimately 

1.) I never said how much above average   But it also likely puts you on the right side of the bell curve, sure. However, depending on how you categorize the “top few percent of all climbers” I’m not sure I agree. The gap between casual climbers and those dedicated to only climbing is pretty wide. 

2.) All joking aside, and with that said, 8a is 10000% not elite level. I would say to 5.14a is just starting to be elite, but definitely not 8a. I will succumb and admit 8a is as far below elite grades as it is above average grades. You can walk into most gyms in SLC and Colorado and you’ll see multiple of people capable, or actively, climbing 8a. That is not elite. That is somewhere between above average and elite, if I’m being honest. 

It still just amazes me the progression in physical rock climbing difficulty since the 50s.

1954 - Four minute mile acheived, is the limit of human running ability.

1956 - Tahquitz guide published systematising the YDS, describing 5.9 as the limit of human free climbing ability.

2022 - Four minute mile is still undoubtedly an elite achievement, wikipedia quoting a source claiming just 1,755 runners have documented it

2022 - climbers who can't climb 5.9 having panic attacks because of how unbelievably shit they are at climbing (see the recent enormocast).

Yury wrote:

And the "99th level troll" prize goes to Prince Kitty Hatr.
She is absolutely right.
If we define any person who failed to climb 8a as a person with physical disability, we can conclude that anybody (except people with physical disabilities) can climb 8a.

First off, as a prince, I identify as he/your majesty. Secondly, I’m not sure how you arrived at that conclusion based on what I said but I now have a better understanding of why you post the things you do…

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

Huh?

The point is, the rate of progression in climbing has been really amazing compared to other sports. I'm impressed, I'm complementing all of you who have trained so hard.

A cutting edge running feat in the 1950s is still elite.

A cutting edge climbing feat in the 1950s (eg John Gill climbing V8-ish in 1957) is now so pedestrian that you would suggest someone has a physical disability if they couldn't achieve it.