The latest, greatest 2:1 hauling kit

Ryan PKwrote:

any concerns with the petzl Oscillante? looks like the lightest option for the bottom pulley but is plastic.

Don’t waste your money on crap pulleys without bearings.  The recipe is laid out in the post and it’s really advised to follow it.  Lots of experience through trial and error went into perfecting it to where it’s at now.  Why not do it right the first time?  You’ll likely just spend more money having to re buy the right components once realizing they’re needed.  

any differences between the cmc proswivel and rockexotica omniblock? 

Ryan PKwrote:

any differences between the cmc proswivel and rockexotica omniblock? 

Both made by Rock Exotica, the CMC version simply undergoes additional testing and is certified for professional applications is how I understand it. 

Edit:  I’m pretty sure Skot owns one of the CMC branded ones, maybe he can correct me if needed or add on to what I wrote. 

Just since the upper pulley came up .....

Sometimes you have to laugh at yourself. I carelessly picked up the 2" CMC Pro Swivel, and realized my error when I saw how tiny Quinn's pulley looked whilst we hauled up the Heart Lines this past spring. Well, that's one benefit of hooking up with people who know what the hell they're doing! Always thought my 6 mm powercord looked funny in that beast of a pulley ...

Anyway, it's the 1.1" you want! (right?)

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The 2:1 ratchet has been a continuing source of inspiration for me. I'll often start hauling 1:1, regret my choices, and slap on the 2:1 and be smilin as the bags levitate up to the belay.

Why’s my pulley gotta be tiny?

And I don’t remember “we” hauling   

If I learnt anything from this thread, it's that there are many different kinds of pulleys out there. Small, large, bulky, sleek and smooth. All will get the job done as long as they're used properly .

As for the hauling, someone needs to unstuck those bags. No charge for JT's Unstucking Service, LLC. You just have to teach me stuff so I can be less of a wall gumby   

jt newgardwrote:

Sometimes you have to laugh at yourself. I carelessly picked up the 2" CMC Pro Swivel, and realized my error when I saw how tiny Quinn's pulley looked whilst we hauled up the Heart Lines this past spring. Well, that's one benefit of hooking up with people who know what the hell they're doing! Always thought my 6 mm powercord looked funny in that beast of a pulley ...

Initially I ended up with the Omni 1.5” which not only completely dwarfed the Omni 1.1” in size but was also significantly heavier (at least double the weight). Just between those two consecutive sizes the 1.1” was comically small by comparison.
That 2” Pro Swivel must be an absolute monster next to the 1.1” and the weight… yikes.

Last night I got my kit out, and I have the 1.5" CMC-branded Pro Swivel after all! So our thinking might have been more aligned after all, Brian .... I'm remembering now that I thought I was being smart picking up a larger pulley for that particular link in the system. However, for the loads we're dealing with, it seems very unlikely a small increase in efficiency (order of a couple pounds from homemade tests presented up thread) is worth the added weight and bulk of the pulley itself. Maybe I'll get the 1.1" although it's kinda cute rocking my lucky large pulley.

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aside: In a high load application, increased efficiency of a large diameter pulley must be related to the lower stress imposed on the sheave bearing (load distributes over larger area) ? And perhaps enhanced if you have a stiff cord/cable bending thru the pulley? Not relevant to us climbers, using flexible cord of course. 

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Once I had my kit out, I read thru this entire thread again. It really is worth it for context on a wide variety of use considerations besides the components themselves. Spoiler alert, Mark's first post is all you need for the proper components, lol.

But, something that didn't get quite as much attention on my mind -- ergonomics when hauling. I'd be curious 1) how exactly folks carry and deploy their 2:1, and 2) get situated with their motions, Z-cord adjustment, reset of the lower rope grab, etc. One thing I was meaning to try was setting a weight (water bottle perhaps) on the lower rope grab to see if it would reset itself automatically. Someone did mention that already -- could be real nice I think! You could use both hands to assist in standing back up for the next squat. And tending the slack side of the haul line-- speaking of, coiled in a rope bag ?? Or snaking way down the wall ? I'm just full of questions this morning ....

jt newgardwrote:

And tending the slack side of the haul line-- speaking of, coiled in a rope bag ?? Or snaking way down the wall ? I'm just full of questions this morning ....

The Leaders end of the haul line has a bite knot with carabiner.

When I set up to haul I clip that end to the anchor, pull up a handful of rope, tie another overhand on a bite and clip it back to the same carabiner forming a basket.

I flake the rope into this “rope” basket.

Sometimes super long flakes, or as short as i want.

When I finish hauling, I dock the bag, and use the rope close to the bag to back it up.

I again make another rope basket and flake the rope backwards through the haul device from the original rope basket into the new basket perfectly preparing the rope for the next lead.

Rope never comes out of haul device for entire big wall. 

Skot makes a bag for it. Cut to the chase and just buy it.

When you get to the anchor, clip the system into the middle bolt and just do whatever you can right away to get the bag off the lower anchor so that the second can get moving. Once you’ve done that fine-tune the length of the Z chord, so that you are doing a comfortable squat and stand up.

A water bottle or some weight on the rope grab is fine except that, don’t forget, 2:1  advantage is also 2:1 disadvantage if your system is not efficient. When you start to squat, if the Z cord is not tight in the system you’re going to be wasting effort. Weight on the lower rope grab probably won’t get it tight enough.

As far as good pulleys, go, do you want to hear the story about my friends, who went up on the NA and decided to “save weight” (how much possible weight could you save between the types of pully were talking about?) and took smaller pulleys. Do you want to hear about how those pulleys fully self-destructed and they retreated?

So there you are on your chosen route with your lightweight smaller pulleys and they have just self-destructed. Imagine that I rap down and I have this awesome pulley that I’ll sell you for let’s say $300. I’m pretty sure you’d buy them and when you got down, you would  buy me a beer and thank me for being such a nice guy and saving your ass.

Rope bags, Baby, Rope bags!

Although it is sort of a problem that the haul line needs to be bagged from the haul bag to the top, so unless you want to switch ends  every time you can only bag it after the bag gets the anchor.
I’ll sort of lap coil it to keep it out of the way until the bag arrives and then I’ll bag the haul line afterwards.

Alex’s technique looks good. 

Awesome, thanks guys -- not only can I incorporate some improved techniques in my haul protocol, but my pulley curiosity is satisfied. The pulley doesn't need to be large (especially for 2:1 with thin zed cord), but with quality bearings, and preferably the non-explodey kind ! Perhaps I should know better as a civil engineer, however I'm more the dumb dirt variety.

Good advice Mark, to prioritize getting the bags off the anchor. I am guilty of putzing around with my whole stance and zed cord length unnecessarily. And I'm remembering Quinn had nice rope bag that lived next to the haul bags. That was so easy to reverse stack it through the microtrax into the rope bag once the haul bags arrived -- no tangles allowed !!

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

If only he’d get on the snake charmer bandwagon 

Sorry to derail the 2:1 thread with Rope Bucket Chatter..

But- I see Zero upside to the Snake Charmer aka Double Barrel Rope Bucket..

1) it’s not lighter - likely heavier

2) it’s optimized with a fairly wide spread- wider than many anchors especially if you don’t have 2 bags to string it between.

3) it works best with a 3rd point in the middle

4) the Cinch’able nature of single bags (even Metolius stuff sacks) keeps the weight of the rope from pulling stacked rope out of the bag- while still allowing it to feed- critical when soloing (esp on a Solo Tag rig) but handy with partners too..

It’s restrictive and eliminates all the flexibility of having the bags be separate..

a) you can’t send the Haul Line bag up with the bags and bag the lead line as you jug.

b) you can’t leave the haul line stacked at the anchor and have the lead cord stacked on your Tag Bag when running a continuous loop/ Solo Tag bag.. 

c) being able to huck the loaded bag (tied to the rope end) for rappels is nice.. 

d) If you tie your 2 lines in a knot- it’s easier to un-tangle individual buckets with the remaining rope stacked inside

This makes me curious what you think is the best rope bag Quinn. What’s the best thing avail to buy that you like for how you use it? And/or how would you design the perfect rope bag for your use.

I agree with your perspective on seperate bags. I had made some bags for myself that were just okay. Want to make some new ones.

Thanks 

I like the old A5 design.. cylindrical bag with a Zippered Baffle .. for me it’s perfect.. 

Durango Sewing Solutions makes it- and Black Diamond too…

Admittedly- from a simplicity standpoint- you could probably make a solid case for the Large Metolius Wall Stuffsack 

I used the Large Metolius Wall Bags for years until Skot started making rope bags.
I’m not a fan of snake charmer type bags. I like two individual bags, they give you more options.

And aside from rope bags, Options, baby, options. 

I like the snake charmer...

MFW getting some good advice on hauling techniques:

But my careless off-hand remark about rope bags totally derails the 2:1 thread and kicks off marital strife between Kevin and Quinn:

And no one bothers to make a joke after I overestimated the actual size of my "pulley":

Oh well, all water under the bridge!

Wow, this whole thread is why I love MP, right down to Alphonse and Gaston…

JT, nobody is going to mock your pulley, just as long as you know how to use it