The latest, greatest 2:1 hauling kit

Peter Zabrok wrote:

That is, like, a lot of big wall theory, eh?  And your bights bite. 

Your rite.

If you really wanted to not carry the weight of the rope below you, wouldn't using a microtrax as your back up device solve this? You'd just have two jumars and the Trax, to my understanding none of those are really holding the weight of the rope, just your body weight onto the rope. The weight of the rope is then just held by the anchor above, no?

Thomas Zenner wrote:

If you really wanted to not carry the weight of the rope below you, wouldn't using a microtrax as your back up device solve this? You'd just have two jumars and the Trax, to my understanding none of those are really holding the weight of the rope, just your body weight onto the rope. The weight of the rope is then just held by the anchor above, no?

Trax introduces more problems than it's worth.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

The microtrax is great until you need to lower out or pass a piece, then all the time savings evaporates like stoke on the opening pitches of the Nose.

Something like a Taz Lov, Camp Lift (easy to backfeed rope through), Trango Vergo, Edelrid Eddy would be the ideal, but realistically people just use a grigri for the purpose since it's already on them. That's definitely less than ideal though and definitely slows you down at the beginning of the pitch. Camp Lift might be a really good one as it weighs almost nothing and is pretty easy to feed rope backwards through. Taz Lov would be the ultimate device but is just way too heavy being an industrial rope access device. 

You guys tie back up knots??  Huh.  I’m learning so much.  

Skot Richards wrote:

You guys tie back up knots??  Huh.  I’m learning so much.  

I didn't even know you were allowed to do that... think of the headache I could have avoided. Mind blown...

Thomas, the microtrax doesn't change the weight of the rope that is hanging off the climber. From the tie-in point, follow the rope down to the apex where it turns upwards towards the fixed point. As KD mentioned, multiply this measurement by g/m and that's how much is hanging off the follower (or, how much weight the follower is "carrying," if you prefer), regardless of a backup device or backup knots.

Since I like to quibble with KD, I don't think the addition of a microtrax changes the time/efficiency equation much. If you're concerned about time, you're going to use a single alpine draw to connect to the lower ascender only, with no capture biner on upper ascender so you can easily jump pieces if need be. If you're not concerned about time, then the extra 5-10s to open the micro so you can do a lowerout doesn't make much difference, b/c you're already spending so much time on other (debatably extraneous) safety aspects that a few extra seconds doesn't make much impact on your overall day.

As far as the math, chris cragsocks (and hson P) are correct that the initial weight is only 2.5lbs, and grows from there, to a maximum of 5lbs. Rerunning your numbers comes up with a rough equation of about 50 x 3.75lbs = (roughly) 200lbs. Seems fair to think that it's worth the leader to pull up at least 60-75% of that rope (my personal preference as a follower is to always have 20-25ft to start with, if possible) in order to increase overall efficiency of the team.

Christian, I was referring to not tying into the rope at all, just letting it free hang below you. In this situation I believe the anchor above holds all the weight of the rope. This is not how I do things, nor does it seem efficient or redundant. But I just wanted to suggest it as a way to reduce the weight on the jugger. Maybe it would be useful if you're jugging fixed lines? No lower outs and it limits the extra weight you're pulling up each pitch.

Thomas Zenner wrote:

Christian, I was referring to not tying into the rope at all, just letting it free hang below you. 

To be honest,  I maybe tie one back up knot in a pitch. But I never untie from the end of the rope… Unless I’m at a belay and there’s some ungodly kerfuffle going on that makes untying the easiest or fastest way of clearing the issue.  

Thomas, I suppose you may have referenced that, I will admit I haven't followed this thread for a while but yes, as Skot said, I'm not a fan of completely untying from the rope, despite my willingness to accept risk. I have a friend who is more than happy to fix and follow on a single micro, but I don't know if I could. You also need to be VERY conscientious about whether that rope could get snagged in anything.

One theme I see people mentioning seems to be the idea of *not* overengineering things, which I think is a good principle. Appreciate you bouncing things out there, that's how ideas get accepted/rejected, I think this one doesn't warrant enough concern to address (the extra weight), so prob best to focus efforts on saving energy in other places.

For instance, KD mentioned the extra weight multiplied by number of "jugs." Well, *time* is also a big factor, unless you're fulling sitting on your tether at the end of each jug, which isn't really feasible at a rapid pace. In this vein, if you were to follow a pitch in 4min instead of 10, the 6min saved hanging on your ascenders/ladders might more than make up for the additional energy required to increase the pace down to 4min/pitch, as you're more than halving the time spent hanging on the rope/jugs/ladders. Food for thought.

Alan Long wrote:

just came across this... new mini and pro traxion from petzl. the pro seems pretty sweet with an integrated swivel 

https://www.asktowersupply.com/petzl-pro-traxion-progress-capture-pulley-8-13-mm?utm_term=&utm_campaign=**LP+pMax+-+All+Products&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=4899319219&hsa_cam=18396892939&hsa_grp=&hsa_ad=&hsa_src=x&hsa_tgt=&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=CjwKCAjw5pShBhB_EiwAvmnNV8aJzhWIAs6A1AHHUKRUK0Q8rlqr5WlyGVYzpegKyd2R6HYQpaZDaRoCGxYQAvD_BwE

https://www.asktowersupply.com/petzl-mini-traxion-progress-capture-pulley-7-11-mm?utm_term=&utm_campaign=**LP+pMax+-+All+Products&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=4899319219&hsa_cam=18396892939&hsa_grp=&hsa_ad=&hsa_src=x&hsa_tgt=&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=CjwKCAjw5pShBhB_EiwAvmnNV4x72ecn2OPaoUFQeWY-Og2dtZNq7W1pxBuJkzvEsn8nOlTsAc3wghoCvsoQAvD_BwE

New Mini looks very rad. And swivel on pro is an excellent addition! 

Since I own neither a pro-tracks mini tracks or a microtracs i will probably by both of the new ones

Damn! I literally just bought the pro and a swivel!  Oh well. The improvements look dope.

Jake Tarren wrote:

Damn! I literally just bought the pro and a swivel!  Oh well. The improvements look dope.

Cost about the same

$200!!!!   Yikes!!!    
Fuck it,  I’ll preorder and see what it’s like. 

Any reason to use a petzl basic ascender over a petzl chest croll? The croll looks smaller and lighter. 

abandon moderation wrote:

.... Also maybe the original had this as well, I can't tell, but there's a significant bend that twists a bit on every pull

The "twist" or offset you describe has been present on at least the last 3 generations of Petzl Basic ascender. Any of them will work for the 2:1 set up, whereas the newest version you show above is just a bit lighter and more compact than the earlier generations. It also has rounder corners and fits in the hand better and which is good because you are typically pushing the basic down the haul line with your hand on each reset while hauling.

abandon moderation wrote:

I've noticed that the petzl basic ascender currently sold doesn't quite match the photos of the one in the original post. The original has two perfectly sized carabiner holes, while the current one has a much larger spot in the top

Also maybe the original had this as well, I can't tell, but there's a significant bend that twists a bit on every pull

Petzl bought out a new basic a couple of years ago, it's better but can no longer be used for tr soloing. 

What kind of pulleys should i get? already have a microtrax and a petzl partner pulley. Any recommendations on the last one? Rei is having a sale on petzl right now. Should I get a second partner pulley or something else?

Ryan King wrote:

What kind of pulleys should i get? already have a microtrax and a petzl partner pulley. Any recommendations on the last one? Rei is having a sale on petzl right now. Should I get a second partner pulley or something else?

I use the nanotrax and a wildcountry rope man 2, but tbh the rope man kinda sucks. If you’re looking for a tr solo setup, it’s better then a grigri I suppose 

any concerns with the petzl Oscillante? looks like the lightest option for the bottom pulley but is plastic.