The latest, greatest 2:1 hauling kit

Luke Stefurak wrote:

I'm still confused...that sometimes people do stupid shit. 

I am attached to the anchor with some type of tether.  And tossed a quick clove on the lead line, at 10-12ft from my tie-in point, as Skot suggested.

forgot a step there, as several here have suggested. Don't complicate things, but also don't do silly things like skip simple backups, especially backups that *don't* get in the way and are easy to escape.

edit: I personally prefer an overhand on a bight as a tether backup, that way I can toss it on any biner and still easily slip other things under it, and it comes off super easy if block leading. 

I don’t spend too much time worrying about the results of an if and then and if and then and if and then scenario.

There is a certain point where you have to take responsibility for your actions and SIMPLY DON’T DO THAT. 

Kurt wrote:

"I hit the anchor, before I take off rack, drink, smoke, I build the anchor, fix the line with like a 10 ft leash, and get the bag off the anchor." 

The benevolent leader will also pull up all the remaining lead rope, and fix it a second time so the cleaner doesn't have the weight of any extra lead rope dangling off of him if tying backup/rope stacking knots while cleaning.  Of course on those extraordinarily rare pitches which are plumb and you don't need to tie backup knots because you don't have to take your jugs off the fixed rope in order to pass gear, you can leave all the lead rope dangling beneath. Unless it's really windy....

Luke Stefurak wrote:

"I'm still confused if you are trolling me..." 

Yer ...

Peter Zabrok wrote:

The benevolent leader will also pull up all the remaining lead rope, and fix it a second time so the cleaner doesn't have the weight of any extra lead rope dangling off of him if tying backup/rope stacking knots while cleaning.  Of course on those extraordinarily rare pitches which are plumb and you don't need to tie backup knots because you don't have to take your jugs off the fixed rope in order to pass gear, you can leave all the lead rope dangling beneath. Unless it's really windy....

Yer ...

Seems like more and more people are using a grigri or microtrax backup and leaving the rope hanging and abandoning backup knots all together. Kind of have mixed feelings on it myself but I tried it and it is faster. 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

People do that until they eventually figure out why it's not faster.

The grigri is not faster than tying 3-4 overhand knots over the course of a cleaning a pitch when you account for the need to mind the rope in the beginning of the pitch and dealing with occasional rope hangups far far below or far far to the side of you from the hanging rope. Some might say that it saves time from having to put the grigri on the rope when you pass a piece or lower out, until they realize that one does not need to use a grigri at all to pass a piece or lower out. 

The microtrax is great until you need to lower out or pass a piece, then all the time savings evaporates like stoke on the opening pitches of the Nose. 

Interesting. Thanks, Kevin!

Peter Zabrok wrote:

The benevolent leader will also pull up all the remaining lead rope, and fix it a second time so the cleaner doesn't have the weight of any extra lead rope dangling off of him if tying backup/rope stacking knots while cleaning.  Of course on those extraordinarily rare pitches which are plumb and you don't need to tie backup knots because you don't have to take your jugs off the fixed rope in order to pass gear, you can leave all the lead rope dangling beneath. Unless it's really windy....

Yer ...

I disagree wall Dr. I don’t want the rope with me at the anchor while I’m hauling and doing other crap up there. I just toss a gri gri on the rope and poof no need for know tying. The 50 feet of rope on your waist is good for you Pete. You could use the extra workout!

^^  Are you calling me FAT, Kurt?!  

I guess all this goes to show that the Better Way is whatever works best for you.  

Peter Zabrok wrote:

The benevolent leader will also pull up all the remaining lead rope, and fix it a second time so the cleaner doesn't have the weight of any extra lead rope dangling off of him if tying backup/rope stacking knots while cleaning.  Of course on those extraordinarily rare pitches which are plumb and you don't need to tie backup knots because you don't have to take your jugs off the fixed rope in order to pass gear, you can leave all the lead rope dangling beneath. Unless it's really windy....

Yer ...

And now you have a annoyed follower who has to jiggle the 2nd ascender to get it to run for the first 25ft, since there's not extra weight under it to help it run straight off the belay. Also, am I supposed to tie backup knots? ;)

(if it's windy and/or there are features where the rope can snag, that's on the follower to be occasionally pulling up a loop and clipping it to themselves to keep it from snagging, as far as I'm aware)

finally, yes, beer can make one fat. however, if the furnace is hot enough, anything will burn... :)

My dad started his own combustion engineering company, and he always said, "if you get anything hot enough, it will burn."

For sure, don't pull up every last inch. Always nice to have a few feet dangling beneath when you get started. But if you're never going to tie a backup knot, no need to pull up any rope. 

How much does a modern climbing rope weigh? 10 pounds? 12?

So pulling up half of a 200 foot rope will save the poor old overworked second five or six pounds (and this is only when he is fully up at the new anchor and has all of half the rope hanging from his harness)!

(Not to mention the additional cluster at the anchor for the-equalize-the-shit-out-of-everything crowd)

Oh the horror!!!

Peter Zabrok wrote:

^^  Are you calling me FAT, Kurt?!  

calling you fat is calling me fat, we are just well fed my friend. We prob both should be jugging with a few ropes tied to us...

Mark Hudon wrote:

How much does a modern climbing rope weigh? 10 pounds? 12?

Ask any old man doing body weight exercises inside the squat rack at the gym….it’s not about weight, it’s about reps.

(I’m not sure who I agree with in this non debate about non climbing, but must always take jabs at old men.)

Rprops wrote:

Ask any old man doing body weight exercises inside the squat rack at the gym….it’s not about weight, it’s about reps.

(I’m not sure who agree with in this non debate about non climbing, but must always take jabs at old men.)

As an Old Man that Squats in the Squat Rack and refuses to Pull up Rope before I fix- im angry at your post.. 

but I can’t totally remember why- 

Wait…..   

You guys train for climbing??!!  

*mind blown.

That would make things so much easier.    

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

A fun thing to work out the reps: (approximating of course since every pitch is different and the physics are complex) 

• We'll take a 10lb sixty meter rope and call it approx 200' giving the rope weight being 0.05lbs per foot
• We'll assume an average pitch length of 100' thus the climber will start with 100' of rope hanging from them when they start to clean the pitch
• Assuming 2' feet of travel in every jugging cycle, we'll have 50 jugging cycles over the course of cleaning a 100' pitch
• As each cycle will add 0.05lbs to the weight the climber is carrying, we have 5lbs + 5.05lbs + 5.1lbs + etc etc etc + 7.45lbs = 311.25lbs being lifted over the course of cleaning a pitch 
• I'm going to ignore the shared weight holding between the top anchor and the climber that happens until the climber ties off the hanging rope to their harness mostly because I don't know how to calculate that. Let's go ahead and remove a third of the overall weight from the total to account for this leaving us with approx 200lbs

So we have a climber whose partner does not pull up the extra slack of the rope being required to lift an additional ~ 200lbs over the course of the pitch when compared to the climber whose partner does pull up the slack rope. 

I haven't done any real math since college so let's rip my calculations apart team!

The climber will start with 50‘ of rope hanging from them. 150’ are hanging from the anchor. After jugging x feet, the climber has x/2 + 50 feet of rope hanging from them, so the instantaneous work to lift this mass upwards by ∆x feet is: length * density * acceleration due to gravity * ∆x = (x/2 + 50) * 0.05 * 32 * ∆x. Integrate this from 0 to 100 to get the total work, which is roughly 500 Joules after switching to SI units. Most of you can output 500 watts on a stationary bike, this would be 1 second of effort. 

This is all moot, anyway, because y’all are going to be lifting that rope up the whole route regardless of who’s doing the lifting…

Old man wants his 500 JOULES back. What the hell is a joule anyway?

Foot-pounds, please!!

That's the only thing I was gonna say, Kevin (as Hson points out), is that to convert your rope weights to work done by the jugger, you multiply the weight by the upward distance it must be carried.

It makes sense that it ain't too bad. After all you are carrying your much-heavier (some moreso than others, no judgments from this perennially thin whisp of a man) body up the wall already.

This has gotta be one of the all time great climbing threads. I am swooning at the level of nerdiness attained!

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Dealing with a 9-5 job chock full of pointless tasks and false starts and hurry up and wait and irritating hurdles to jump through and ridiculous partners is how I train for Bigwall climbing. 

Ok whew,  this is how I train for ElCap. 

Except mine is the 5p-3a  and the standby cause we have no parts to make repairs…. 

Vhat is zis vord, "train"?!  

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

A fun thing to work out the reps: (approximating of course since every pitch is different and the physics are complex) 

• We'll take a 10lb sixty meter rope and call it approx 200' giving the rope weight being 0.05lbs per foot
• We'll assume an average pitch length of 100' thus the climber will start with 100' of rope hanging from them when they start to clean the pitch
• Assuming 2' feet of travel in every jugging cycle, we'll have 50 jugging cycles over the course of cleaning a 100' pitch
• As each cycle will add 0.05lbs to the weight the climber is carrying, we have 5lbs + 5.05lbs + 5.1lbs + etc etc etc + 7.45lbs = 311.25lbs being lifted over the course of cleaning a pitch 
• I'm going to ignore the shared weight holding between the top anchor and the climber that happens until the climber ties off the hanging rope to their harness mostly because I don't know how to calculate that. Let's go ahead and remove a third of the overall weight from the total to account for this leaving us with approx 200lbs

So we have a climber whose partner does not pull up the extra slack of the rope being required to lift an additional ~ 200lbs over the course of the pitch when compared to the climber whose partner does pull up the slack rope. 

I haven't done any real math since college so let's rip my calculations apart team!

Only half of the slack rope is weighting the follower if the follower is tied in to the end, so in your example of a 10 lbs rope, at the beginning, 100 ft of rope dangles below the follower in a loop, but supported on one end by the anchor, so in truth, the additional 5 lbs of weight is actually 2.5 lbs of weight.  Assuming bites are tied and attached to the follower, then the slack line between the ascenders and the last bite is again halved, but everything from the last bite to the follower is fully weighted.  More bites = more total weight.  Or no bites and you can use your calculation above, but reduce each number by half.

That is, like, a lot of big wall theory, eh?  And your bights bite.