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Here’s a pic of the Hilti KB3 (top) vs the Power Bull. Will install some tomorrow and give an update.

eli posswrote:

You've got to be trolling right? Glue ins are one of the few bolts that practically cannot be replaced. Mechanical bolts are infinitely easier to replace than glue ins.

I think wedge bolts are much easier to replace than in the past and are supposed to be as easy as 5 piece bolts to replace, assuming you have a power drill. 

They can be replaced, and relatively easily, using core drilling methods described elsewhere on this forum.  I actually replaced one today, hole for hole, using a core drill rig.

Brian Murpheywrote:

They can be replaced, and relatively easily, using core drilling methods described elsewhere on this forum.  I actually replaced one today, hole for hole, using a core drill rig.

I've heard a torch can also be used in some cases to heat the epoxy to get it to detach from its bond. Do you have any experience trying that?  Just wondering if it can actually work!

Dale O'Brienwrote:

I've heard a torch can also be used in some cases to heat the epoxy to get it to detach from its bond. Do you have any experience trying that?  Just wondering if it can actually work!

I’m sure it’s been discussed, but what is the outcome of setting fire to the rock in terms of its strength / color / moss / lichen with a blown torch?

And what about the ropes!?

Dale O'Brienwrote:

I've heard a torch can also be used in some cases to heat the epoxy to get it to detach from its bond. Do you have any experience trying that?  Just wondering if it can actually work!

Yes and good luck!

Most adhesives, certainly ETAG rated, contain fire retardants...

Transferring heat to the base of the anchor is very difficult because of the material thermal properties and generally the anchor becomes over heated towards the eye then snaps when torque is applied.

There are other effective and far safer methods of extracting a glue-in anchor.

Snapped off 6mm stainless steel (316) twist leg eye image and the scorched rock surface (with cut off anchor shaft). This was done on a small test block of stone with Hilti RE 500 (which contains fire retardant).

Francis Hadenwrote:

Yes and good luck!

Most adhesives, certainly ETAG rated, contain fire retardants...

Transferring heat to the base of the anchor is very difficult because of the material thermal properties and generally the anchor becomes over heated towards the eye then snaps when torque is applied.

There are other effective and far safer methods of extracting a glue-in anchor.

Snapped off 6mm stainless steel (316) twist leg eye image and the scorched rock surface (with cut off anchor shaft). This was done on a small test block of stone with Hilti RE 500 (which contains fire retardant).

i think the twist legs are really the wrong glue-in for this test because they have some inherent strength even without the glue (1000lbs or thereabouts?).  my sense is also that it's about heat, so a 'fire retardant' shouldn't really matter (but maybe someone with a bit more experience/insight in that regard can chime in on that one).

old5tenwrote:

i think the twist legs are really the wrong glue-in for this test because they have some inherent strength even without the glue (1000lbs or thereabouts?).

Until recently, the twist legs were all designed for 12mm holes (I believe the ones sold in the US are now 1/2") this means they slide freely into 1/2" (12.7mm) holes. So it depends on the bolt and drill.

Alex Rwrote:

Until recently, the twist legs were all designed for 12mm holes (I believe the ones sold in the US are now 1/2") this means they slide freely into 1/2" (12.7mm) holes. So it depends on the bolt and drill.

so, i bought 1/2" twist bolts from jim directly back in 2015 and a while later bought 1/2" bolts bolts from team tough/quinn - if anything it seems exactly the opposite, my last order of twist bolts went into the 1/2" holes pretty easily...

old5tenwrote:

so, i bought 1/2" twist bolts from jim directly back in 2015 and a while later bought 1/2" bolts bolts from team tough/quinn - if anything it seems exactly the opposite, my last order of twist bolts went into the 1/2" holes pretty easily...

I've only ever bought one batch of them around when there was talk of a change last year. In general I'm not sure the interference fit on twists is meant to have much holding power. Instead just being enough to keep them in place till the glue hardens on overhangs. The 1000lbs number I've only ever heard for wave bolts. Even then it varies with how worn the drill is.

What Alex said! A torch is not the most effective or least destructive way of getting a glue in out. 

DrRockso RRGwrote:

What Alex said! A torch is not the most effective or least destructive way of getting a glue in out. 

agreed, but that's not my point...

beyond that take a look at the numbers for mechanical only (no glue) failure rates of twist bolts - they are 'impressive'!!!

from jim's website - http://www.bolt-products.com/StrengthandTests.htm

Dry tests 

To demonstrate the additional mechanical fixing of Bolt Products bolts we test them dry (without glue).

Test conditions.Indoors. Air Temp 17°C. Rock and glue temp 17°C.

Rock. Coarse grained Granite. 

Compressive strength. Over 200N/mm² 

Adhesive.None

Cure time.-

Cleaning. Holes brushed and blown out. 

Direction of test. Axial and radial.

Bolt                                                                   Hole dia.         Test Direction                  Failure strain                        Failure Mode

Bolt Products 6mm rod. 80mm long                   12mm              Axial                              12,35kN                             Bolt pulled out

Bolt Products 6mm rod. 80mm long                   12mm              Radial                                 20,01kN                            Bolt pulled out      

Bolt Products 6mm rod. 100mm long                 12mm              Radial                             21,17kN                            Bolt pulled out

 Bolt Products 6mm rod. 150mm long                 12mm              Radial                             22,59kN                            Bolt pulled out      

Bolt Products 8mm rod. 150mm long                 16mm              Radial                             26,46kN                            Test block failed 

once again, my point is that twist bolts are NOT a good test for bolt removal with a blow torch because of the inherent mechanical holding power...

Not trying to comment on if wave bolts or twist legs are good candidates but typically glues lose a lot of strength when above their glass transition temperature (Tg), and don't necessarily need to be superheated or on fire for that to happen. I haven't looked at any specific glues datasheets but that's typically what I look for on the data sheet when using structural adhesives at work. 

Love the discussion though :)

old5tenwrote:

agreed, but that's not my point...

beyond that take a look at the numbers for mechanical only (no glue) failure rates of twist bolts - they are 'impressive'!!!

from jim's website - http://www.bolt-products.com/StrengthandTests.htm

Dry tests 

To demonstrate the additional mechanical fixing of Bolt Products bolts we test them dry (without glue).

Test conditions.Indoors. Air Temp 17°C. Rock and glue temp 17°C.

Rock. Coarse grained Granite. 

Compressive strength. Over 200N/mm² 

Adhesive.None

Cure time.-

Cleaning. Holes brushed and blown out. 

Direction of test. Axial and radial.

Bolt                                                                   Hole dia.         Test Direction                  Failure strain                        Failure Mode

Bolt Products 6mm rod. 80mm long                   12mm              Axial                              12,35kN                             Bolt pulled out

Bolt Products 6mm rod. 80mm long                   12mm              Radial                                 20,01kN                            Bolt pulled out      

Bolt Products 6mm rod. 100mm long                 12mm              Radial                             21,17kN                            Bolt pulled out

 Bolt Products 6mm rod. 150mm long                 12mm              Radial                             22,59kN                            Bolt pulled out      

Bolt Products 8mm rod. 150mm long                 16mm              Radial                             26,46kN                            Test block failed 

once again, my point is that twist bolts are NOT a good test for bolt removal with a blow torch because of the inherent mechanical holding power...

People have been throwing around the 'use a blow torch to remove glue ins' old wives tale for the last 15 years, it doesn't work well for the reasons already stated, not because of the twist design.  Several people have tried.  The twist design is actually better for removal than some other designs because you can twist it in the direction opposite the twist with a big breaker bar through the head.  Jim's test in granite have little to do with straight out pull in soft and medium sandstone for example,  where with a new drill bit you can slide them in and out by hand, and are also different than the 1/2" version distributed in the US. 

DrRockso RRGwrote:

People have been throwing around the 'use a blow torch to remove glue ins' old wives tale for the last 15 years, it doesn't work well for the reasons already stated, not because of the twist design.  Several people have tried.  The twist design is actually better for removal than some other designs because you can twist it in the direction opposite the twist with a big breaker bar through the head.  Jim's test in granite have little to do with straight out pull in soft and medium sandstone for example,  where with a new drill bit you can slide them in and out by hand, and are also different than the 1/2" version distributed in the US. 

you seem to somehow think that i'm promoting the use of a blowtorch for glue-in bolt removal, which is actually far from reality and exactly the opposite of how i feel.  

to me the quickest, easiest, dare i say 'best' way to deal with glue-in 'removal' is to not remove them at all - chop the head and place another one above!

... but, and i'll say it once again, twist bolts are a poor test in the type of experiment done above, because of their inherent mechanical strength.  on top of that, my experience with twisting them out (in granite) has been quite different - i have not been able to twist them out and that was with a little bit of the inference fit/bolt still sticking out of the hole, albeit with a smaller wrench vs a bigger breaker bar and some seriously undersized biceps ;-)

you may also want check out jim's website that i posted and look at the numbers for his 'soft' rock mechanical holding power test - they are significantly lower, but still rather impressive considering the absence of glue...

maybe we argue about glue-ins and blowtorches in another thread and not in the deals thread? 

Alan Spurwrote:

maybe we argue about glue-ins and blowtorches in another thread and not in the deals thread? 

agreed, my apologies for getting sucked into this (although i did not start it ;-)

now, somebody please tell us how we can get our hands on inexpensive epoxy!!!

Tal Mwrote:

Here’s a pic of the Hilti KB3 (top) vs the Power Bull. Will install some tomorrow and give an update.

Following up here - installed about 10 yesterday on a new ground-up route. They didnt tighten up quite as fast as the hiltis (which I installed after on another route), but honestly it was pretty close. Maybe an extra quarter or half turn per bolt between first putting wrench to bolt and being fully tight. Worth noting that these power bulls were being installed in lead bolted holes which are generally going to be a bit less perfect than rap bolted holes. No issues getting them to snug up.

Won’t officially recommend them yet as my sample size is pretty low and in fairly good rock, but unless I have a pretty bad experience with one from this batch I’ll probably be buying more in the future. Will come back and share thoughts once we’ve dumped all 100 in rock.

Tal Mwrote:

Following up here - installed about 10 yesterday on a new ground-up route. They didnt tighten up quite as fast as the hiltis (which I installed after on another route), but honestly it was pretty close. Maybe an extra quarter or half turn per bolt between first putting wrench to bolt and being fully tight. Worth noting that these power bulls were being installed in lead bolted holes which are generally going to be a bit less perfect than rap bolted holes. No issues getting them to snug up.

Won’t officially recommend them yet as my sample size is pretty low and in fairly good rock, but unless I have a pretty bad experience with one from this batch I’ll probably be buying more in the future. Will come back and share thoughts once we’ve dumped all 100 in rock.

If you put a magnet on them how do they compare to a Hilti 304 Stainless?  More sticky or the same?

Adam Pequettewrote:

If you put a magnet on them how do they compare to a Hilti 304 Stainless?  More sticky or the same?

Definitely more sticky. My magnet is fairly strong and managed to hold up the Power Bull entirely but the Hilti wasn’t quite magnetic enough to be held up entirely 

I've noticed that the Dewalt Powerstuds are the same way.  They must have a higher iron content. I wonder what that means for their longevity.