Questionable opinion or fact? Who is right, me or Eric Horst?

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I agree with Eric Horst but think he is being a bit extreme. I think it is universally accepted that performance in strength specific sports is poor training. If you’re trying to perform at a high level you essentially transition from training to performing. By the end of the performance period you are in poor training shape and your performance begin to dip.

Eric is thinking long term efficiency. Having specific training regime is better than just going out and performing. However just going out and performing could and does yield some improvement just not as much as a training regimen.

World class track athletes don’t race the 1500 everyday for training. 

I agree generally with this, but an issue here is confusing the venue with the intent. There's this idea that climbing outside = performance, and in the gym = training. This is often how many climbers structure their climbing, but it isn't neccesarily that way. You can apply an performance approach to send your gym project, just as you can apply a training approach outside. If on a long term trip, its a good idea to be aware of this distinction, and not try to perform year-round

From a track standpoint, that's like saying you can't train in a stadium, since that's where you race. While racing every day is well established as not the way to progress, there is no reason you can't do your training work on the stadium track, if that is the resource you have available.

Dane Bwrote:

i need more context than those two words. did sharma not train? are we comparing some dude on the internet to chris sharma? 

Sharma don’t train. He just loves climbing, that’s what makes him stronger.

I listened the Cameron Hörst nugget interview where he talks about this and I do agree.  In my experience, if I am always route climbing I will get weaker, even if I’m sending or trying routes at my limit.  I need to mix in bouldering to keep the power and maintain that “pop”.  So, if you’re just on a permanent road trip, spend a week every 1-2 months bouldering.  You won’t lose any endurance during that time and you’ll come back to your routes feeling stronger.

As for the Sharma argument, he bouldered so much, even taking off huge amounts of time from route climbing just to do that.  So you don’t have to “train”, but you do need to make sure you are focusing on raw power moves.

You're definitely not doing yourself a disservice with your current climbing routine; yours is the dream of most climbers.  I know the old saying "the best climber is the one having the most fun" is super corny, but it's often true.  We all do this for fun anyway.  
Also, Horst is right... LOL

Sharma is an outlier, don't base your theories on n=1.

Climbing is part skill, part strength. For the vast majority of us, the skill element needs a lot of attention (probably more than we think), and climbing outside does that. Strength can also be trained by climbing, but it requires you to really, really try hard. As you progress through the grades, that stimulus from just climbing can be insufficient. But also, sharp rock, skin, and other elements make the training by climbing suboptimal.

if you keep the stimulus the same, at some point your body is adjusted to it, and that stimulus is not enough to invoke further gains. Switching it up by introducing new stimulus is the way.  

Jimmy Strange wrote:

Sharma actually did train, I asked him directly myself. He said lots of pullups with different finger combinations on little loops of webbing and left it at that.

Still though, it would have made only a small contribution to his climbing. Having watched him in the flesh, there’s something else entirely going on that appears more to do with Einstein or the devil or Flash Gordon or something. 

I’ll have to find that picture Sharma took of me and Fred Nicole.

a) you're on "a permanent climbing trip" and b) you're 28, so it's kinda hard to muster much sympathy for your "plight", eh? Lol!

My two cents is that it doesn't matter if it's a questionable opinion, totally sound advice, or whatever. You can make of it, whatever you wish to, if you so choose and have the discipline to follow through with your plans. What matters to you? Grades? Fun? If you aren't a high level climber, it just shouldn't matter.....

Except to you.

Pick and choose what seems to work for you, if it doesn't, then tweak the plan accordingly. 

Look at it this way, no matter what you're doing, you're probably still far more fit than average couch potatoes out there, right? Just don't overdo and get injuries. 

Oh, and travel where there's hot springs. 

Here it comes!

I'm signing off!

Best, H.

Cuz I do actually wish ya the best! You only get this time of your life once, no matter how old you are at the moment.

Tradibanwrote:

Two words: Chris. Sharma.

Wrong: Chris Sharma trains.

Proof: there you go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5PUKWJooB4

Adam Rwrote:

I hear on a climbing podcast or from the odd climber every once in a while a statement that goes something like 'I/you get weak on climbing trips.'

Now  I'm on a permanent climbing trip and I'm of the mind that as long as I'm trying hard, exposing myself to as much variation as possible ( different rock types, movement etc), and getting adequate rest)staying healthy etc that I will continue to improve both in strength and ability.

What gives? Am I doing myself a disservice by climbing outside every other day and rarely climbing wood or plastic or lifting heavy things?

Dare you to name one world class climber who DOESN'T train.

So it is YOU vs. every single world class climber who believe in some form of training. You have the burden of proof to make your point. You are 28 years old now.  What have you done? Nothing. Visit this thread 5 years from now. My money is on you will fail.

You don't even have the slightest idea of what finger strength is. How are you in a place to refute the collective wisdom of the best of the best in the climbing community(the best climbers in the world). Have you even measured what your finger strength is? I guarantee that is a no. Have you ever tested your finger strength before and after a climbing trip? I guarantee that is a no. How can someone being so ignorant make this kind of statement.This is always always a dropoff in finger strength after climbing trip. No exception.

i think the best solution is to climb AND train while you're on a road trip.  there are (general) gyms in most places and climbing gyms in many places. knocking off one or two workouts a week, with some general lifting, hangboard, and/or rowing in a gym really helped us during a two month road trip last year.  the time when we climbed the most (if i remember correctly it was 13 or 14 out of 16 days in arco) we climbed really well in terms of technical proficiency and flow/movement, but along the line i did notice a decline in power and general physical fitness (which i consider the base of all activities).

Jake Fosterwrote:

Wrong: Chris Sharma trains.

Proof: there you go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5PUKWJooB4

That’s after he got old. 

The problem with mentioning Sharma every time this question pops up is that we don't know how Sharma would have performed if he'd trained like a modern climber does.  Maybe he'd have climbed another grade or two harder?!  We simply don't know.  So saying he was the best in the world without a conventional training regimen is interesting, but it doesn't prove anything about training.

A lot of people get quite good at climbing by just climbing.  The OP said "stronger" not "better."  But you can often get "better" by just climbing even though you may not be doing one-arms and front-levers and 1-4-9's.  

My personal philosophy is this: if you have the freedom to climb all the time (a la Jon Siegrist: different areas, different angles, different rock types, etc), do that.  Your technique will be amazing and your ability to climb hard without injury will last later into your lifetime.  If you are a "normal" person with a family, job, outside obligations, then yeah, do what most of us do: climb in the gym and get outside when you can, and maybe train once your body is ready for it.

Edited to add: I default to thinking Eric Hörst is wrong any time his mouth is moving.

John RBwrote:

 I default to thinking Eric Hörst is wrong any time his mouth is moving.

Lmao can we get some more info or context for this extra spicy hot take? 

There was an old guidebook that said “hidden in these pages lie the secrets to Eric Horst’s climbing prowess”- or something like that. I can’t remember if it was the old bellefonte quarry guide or the the Delaware Water Gap.  This book is certainly out of print, but maybe look there and find your answer.

Pretty sure it’s the bellefonte guide.
It was full of Horst burns

Mark E Dixonwrote:

Pretty sure it’s the bellefonte guide.
It was full of Horst burns

Yes, the Bellefonte guide, I have a copy.   

Mark E Dixonwrote:

Pretty sure it’s the bellefonte guide.
It was full of Horst burns

So Horst lied about the grades he climbed?

JCMwrote:

I agree generally with this, but an issue here is confusing the venue with the intent. There's this idea that climbing outside = performance, and in the gym = training. This is often how many climbers structure their climbing, but it isn't neccesarily that way. You can apply an performance approach to send your gym project, just as you can apply a training approach outside. If on a long term trip, its a good idea to be aware of this distinction, and not try to perform year-round

From a track standpoint, that's like saying you can't train in a stadium, since that's where you race. While racing every day is well established as not the way to progress, there is no reason you can't do your training work on the stadium track, if that is the resource you have available.

This is exactly it. It’s the same idea that House/Anderson teach in their Uphill Athlete books. 

“Training” needs an objective. It’s specifically design to prepare you for that objective and to be at your peak at the right time. There is a base strength and then the objective specific strength. Trying to be at maximum of all things at all times will never get you to reach extreme objectives (for you).

An Olympic sprinter doesn’t just run sprints exclusively for training.

From an indoor/outdoor climbing standpoint it doesn’t have to do with the venue. But generally speaking artificial venues can be more quickly and precisely tuned to train the exact thing you need to train that day and that gets dumbed down to “indoors is for training.”

Tradibanwrote:

So Horst lied about the grades he climbed?

Voice recognition programs are widely available: There is no hope here.

I'd have to provide a counter example cause I assume most people on training forum are pretty talented :P

I have no talent, and my grade when I was just climbing a lot (outside and in the gym) plateau-ed at ~10c. After adding unstructured hangboard repeaters, I broke into 11s at the same crags; after adding a bunch of training-focused stuff for endurance, drills, 4x4s, maxhangs phases when I barely climb for 4 weeks, I'm into low 12s at the same crags...

I can definitely tell I get weaker over the summer even though I project 1-3 times a week at above my ability, and I'm pretty sure if I "just climb" I'd be weak again quickly (and fwiw I am still a total beginner on granite cause I never trained that).