How many belayers?

“I’m definitely glad we bolt routes and don’t headpoint everything like the Brit’s…”

Just to be clear, ‘the Brits’ don’t headpoint ‘everything’, far from it. Actuality only a relatively small number of climbers on a similarly small number of climbs engage in headpointing. Just like here most trad. routes are climbed onsight and there are now a good number of bolted sport routes ( primarily on limestone and some sandstone areas).

alright PPL, I'll bite. 

Anywhere between 10-20 is probably where a rational weekend warrior would be, any more than 20 seems like too many to manage/ hard to make a solid connections beyond 20. Maybe more if you count indoor?

A better question is how many routes or days out does it take a rational person to be comfortable with a new belay partner?

Takes me about 5-10 pitches at least, rational considering I've had multiple decks?

Thought process: I'm a rational person, therefore I should use my number as a middle of the range. So, how many people have belayed me, in the past year? Darnit, I can't remember!

Thought long and hard, came up with 10, then decided to add some gym partners, and now I'm up to 13. But statistically-speaking, if you took a small sampling of the past year, you would have likely seen only 2.

I imagine myself being sqrt(-1) sort of climber. I prefer my belayers to be half a pie out of phase just to keep things more real.

Pie, now that sounds really good, perhaps with a scoop of ice cream on the side

I do think it can sometimes be a red flag. Narcissists/psychopaths/sociopaths burn through "relationships" much more quickly than the rest of us. They can turn on the superficial charm when it's time to wrangle up new partners, but it doesn't take long to figure out that they're not too much fun to be around (in climbing and in other areas of life). Zero empathy, zero reciprocity, etc.

Climbing is spicy and exciting, which is attractive to psychopaths, who love that adrenaline buzz. Narcissists are focused on themselves and their own goals, and they really don't care much about other people except for figuring out how to use them to achieve those goals. I've often wondered if we have a higher concentration of "Cluster B Personality Traits" among climbers.

Sean Sullivanwrote:

Funny but I remember reading Dave MacLeod's ebook on climbing hard trad and one of the strategies for really dangerous grit stone was multiple belayers. I can't quite remember why. Possibly, the ropes were clipped to different (questionable) gear. Or perhaps, the hope would be that one belayer might react quicker than the other in a long fall situation. Whatever the reason...Nope!

I have employed multiple belayers at once a few times, mostly one is on a “running belay” to take up slack quickly if a piece pulls, this is on double ropes.

As to the OP I rarely climb with the same person twice mostly because schedules don’t line up but I believe it has the added benefit of learning from different people’s experiences.

And, I have also employed two belayors separately on the same day because most people are only good for 8 pitches and I may want to do 16 pitches.

We have head pointed ourselves for FFA and yes its an enjoyable experience but we only did it because of local ethics. A different place I would have drilled the heck out of that thing and it would get climbed multiple times a day instead of once a decade... I only know of two other partys that have led it. It would be a 5 star 11 with two bolts. yes those are silly rulze they came up with. No hammers so they hand placed pitons and no bolts so they are proud and post photos of the blood when they eat it. 

Alan Rubinwrote:

“I’m definitely glad we bolt routes and don’t headpoint everything like the Brit’s…”

Just to be clear, ‘the Brits’ don’t headpoint ‘everything’, far from it. Actuality only a relatively small number of climbers on a similarly small number of climbs engage in headpointing. Just like here most trad. routes are climbed onsight and there are now a good number of bolted sport routes ( primarily on limestone and some sandstone areas).

Yeah fair enough, I spoke very imprecisely. But it's the lack of bolts on British trad that lead to the headpointing, right? If I'm understanding that correctly then that's what I meant-- leaving the route au naturel is neat and headpointing is neat, but as others have stated it's a trade off as less people will enjoy the route but it's a more special experience for the ones who do. 

Consenting adults should be able to have as many belayers as they want! Just remember to get (belay) tested and always remember to wear a rubber (band connected to your belay card).

Ricky Harlinewrote:..... but as others have stated it's a trade off as less people will enjoy the route but it's a more special experience for the ones who do. 

I think that cuts to the heart of the matter. In UK hard trad climbing boldness is highly valued, its on a par with the technical difficulty (maybe even elevated above it) and this is reflected in our unusual grading system (the E grade comes first before the tech grade e.g E9 6c after all).

This means that if bolts were placed to protect these sorts of climbs it would actually be that no one gets to enjoy the route as it no longer exists, the lack of protection was an essential part of the route. I'm assuming that we are all grown up enough to see the flaw in the 'but you could not clip the bolts' line that sometimes pops up at this point . In the UK trad mindset the idea that a few bolts might allow more people to climb them doesn't really even register as an argument. Now I'm not arguing that everywhere should adopt this but it is our 'tradition' and I think its cool that climbing isn't globally homogeneous.

Also its surprising how often headpointing isn't about practicing the route into submission, its not unheard of for the top nutters to go for the lead before ever making a complete ascent on TR, using the added spiciness of the lead to give them the extra bit of oomph!

Neil that is a totally contrived and flawed system.  A much better system INMOP is for the nutters to free solo to get their kicks and have the routes reasonably protected for the rest of us. I dont see why with enough pints you couldn't convince them of this?

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

How many different belayers should a rational person have in one year?

Maybe look for partners, instead??

A machine in a gym can belay.....

For the record, yeah, I climb with the same person/people all the time, but that's because a) this is who my friend's are b) my primary partner is both completely unencumbered by employment, etc, and a total slut so always available to climb or otherwise waste time c) climbing is also time spent with people, outside at least, so I'm not going to be driving a stranger 3.5 hours to COR, for example. But...I have met up with people there, quite a few times now, including sharing my campsites.

Which means...

I've also partnered with almost everyone who's willing, in the past. With those oddball out of town meetups, there's a considerable amount of online chitchat foreplay beforehand, oftentimes. Other times? It's been a spontaneous off the cuff offer out in the wild, right at the crag.

And, I belay far more than I climb. Tend toward being kind that way.

Best, Helen

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I dont see why with enough pints you couldn't convince them of this?

How you gonna get "us" to concur on what reasonable entails? 

PWZwrote:

How you gonna get "us" to concur on what reasonable entails? 

More pints, obviously.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Neil that is a totally contrived and flawed system.  A much better system INMOP is for the nutters to free solo to get their kicks and have the routes reasonably protected for the rest of us. I dont see why with enough pints you couldn't convince them of this?

That's a matter of perspective. Its not a simple issue of 'getting kicks'. Most people would agree that you don't get to chip holds if you arn't good enough to climb the route without them, in UK 'mountain' crag, sea cliff and gritstone climbing you don't get to bolt them if you arn't good enough to climb the route without them either. There is plenty of safe trad and (these days) sport climbing to go around. Variety is the spice of life and all that.

Edit: Remember that to us boldness is a big part of being good for these climbing types/areas.

More edit: Boldness  =/= reckless etc its far more complicated than that.

I’ve been retired for quite a few years and I have a lot of free time during the week and don’t really see the point of being out in the crowds on weekends. so I’m always out looking for people who have two or three consecutive days to climb during the week.
there was one year when I climbed with 35 different people, about 10 of them were my more or less regular partners. The rest of them were mostly people road tripping without a partner. On a certain level, I found it counterproductive because it takes me a while to trust a belayer and also to know that they’re not going do something stupid when they’re leading.
 I did, however, have some wonderful experiences and meet some wonderful people.

I now have a lot of friends who I love to climb with and so I still tend to climb with about 15 different people a year. 

Neil, that is precicly why soloing could be the perfect British pastime.  Wouldn't want to let those Check sandstone folks have the upper hand now would we ;)

Sean Sullivanwrote:

Funny but I remember reading Dave MacLeod's ebook on climbing hard trad and one of the strategies for really dangerous grit stone was multiple belayers. I can't quite remember why. Possibly, the ropes were clipped to different (questionable) gear. Or perhaps, the hope would be that one belayer might react quicker than the other in a long fall situation. Whatever the reason...Nope!

Brits typically climb with a pair of half-ropes, especially on dicey leads.  Having one belayer on each strand  rather than one person managing both give an extra margin of attention and handling.

As a half-rope user, when I climb in a party of three, I often set up with one belayer for each strand, especially if the folks I'm with aren't used to the nuances of half-rope belaying.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Those crazy britts and that whack job from CT had it all wrong. they top roped those rigs into submission and then contrived completely silly ways to marginally protect them all the while feeling superior to the folks who bolt those kinds of lines so that other people can walk up to them and on sight them. 

It's easy to say "top roped into submission" until you're on the sharp end and need to execute. But there's no reason to maintain an air of superiority about head-pointing; it's a stylistic decision. 

Different styles allow for different opinions. For instance, climbing on bolts is ultimately a bit bland since it is completely absent of adventure.

Nick, well we do tend to like the odd cheeky solo.

The film on YouTube ‘Friends of the Grit’ sums up the Gritstone ethic well, do what you want, stack a pile of mats, top rope practice it to buggery before the lead etc. Just as long when you leave and the rain washes away your chalk you leave it essentially as you found it for the next climber.

I think there’s a certain simple beauty in that.