Rope soloing and ground anchors: ethics discussion (uh oh)

J Ewrote:

Everything you listed is necessary to engage in the sport safely, except for crowds of people which is a problem with every single outdoor hobby in existence 

bolt holes at the base are not necessary for safety.

Bolt holes and hardware are never necessary on any cliff that has access to the top, its all convenience. TR it off of all the natural anchors, leave way less trace if that is so important.

Lead rope solo started out with Royal Robbins making the second ascent of the Muir Wall over 10 days in 1968.   Now it’s the ultimate goober magnet.

M Mwrote:

Bolt holes and hardware are never necessary on any cliff that has access to the top, it’s all convenience. TR it off of all the natural anchors, leave way less trace if that is so important.

How did that work out for main cliff at ragged mountain, CT?

There’s far far far far more sport climbers than rope soloists. If all sport climbers TRd off trees at the top then you end up with that mess.

And if you want to make the argument that soloists kill trees (prove it), then you still have to contend with the fact that what Ricky says is true: you can ALWAYS use bolt 1 and 2, or gear Anchor, or sling around Boulder

How did that work out for main cliff at ragged mountain, CT?

There’s far far far far more sport climbers than rope soloists. If all sport climbers TRd off trees at the top then you end up with that mess.

And if you want to make the argument that soloists kill trees (prove it), then you still have to contend with the fact that what Ricky says is true: you can ALWAYS use bolt 1 and 2, or gear Anchor, or sling around Boulder

According to the RMF of CT, climbers are not responsible for those dead trees and plenty of natural gear anchors can be had. Just sayin

Here is an article talking about a slightly different subject, bolts in wilderness areas.

https://www.aspendailynews.com/opinion/mountains-in-wilderness-don-t-need-hardware/article_c29ed7b6-0b5b-11ee-aea3-63d8c34902eb.html

M Mwrote: J Ewrote:

How did that work out for main cliff at ragged mountain, CT?

There’s far far far far more sport climbers than rope soloists. If all sport climbers TRd off trees at the top then you end up with that mess.

And if you want to make the argument that soloists kill trees (prove it), then you still have to contend with the fact that what Ricky says is true: you can ALWAYS use bolt 1 and 2, or gear Anchor, or sling around Boulder

According to the RMF of CT, climbers are not responsible for those dead trees and plenty of natural gear anchors can be had. Just sayin

Here is an article talking about a slightly different subject, bolts in wilderness areas.

https://www.aspendailynews.com/opinion/mountains-in-wilderness-don-t-need-hardware/article_c29ed7b6-0b5b-11ee-aea3-63d8c34902eb.html

Source on that statement from RMF

anyway, if I’m following your logic: since sport climbing and route cleaning exists we may as well go full throttle into doing whatever the hell we want. Someone chiseled a hold or pried a death block, therefore unnecessary drill holes are A-OK, am I following that correctly?

They are all unnecessary if there are natural anchors to be had, you said it. Once the drills come out in an unregulated area all bets are off and Pandora's box is wide open. 

We had some morons add some dumb ass anchors at the top of a very well known crag here in the last few months. Perfect gear anchors everywhere. When I first saw them I laughed at the complete dumbassery then kept climbing. I guess what I'm saying is it made me laugh, laughing is good. 

M Mwrote:

Once the drills come out in an unregulated area all bets are off and Pandora's box is wide open. 

If I smoke one cigarette per month then I should just say fuck it and smoke 3 packs a day because hey, Pandora’s box… yeah I don’t subscribe to that faulty logic (or lackthereof)

I’m sorry to hear about the unnecessary hardware drilled into that crag, but maybe we would encounter fewer hurdles as a sport (eg. Crag closures) if we did less laughing and more educating/advocating/prevention/self enforcing…

J Ewrote:

If I smoke one cigarette per month then I should just say fuck it and smoke 3 packs a day because hey, Pandora’s box… yeah I don’t subscribe to that faulty logic (or lackthereof)

Not the same thing.

I’m sorry to hear about the unnecessary hardware drilled into that crag, but maybe we would encounter fewer hurdles as a sport (eg. Crag closures) if we did less laughing and more educating/advocating/prevention/self enforcing…

It’s only unnecessary according to your perspective. The hardware went in according to the same justification as the lead bolts. That’s the problem with bolting, it’s all judgements , no rules.

Tradibanwrote:

Not the same thing.

It’s only unnecessary according to your perspective. The hardware went in according to the same justification as the lead bolts. That’s the problem with bolting, it’s all judgements , no rules.

It is the same

no? If that were true, sport anchors would be removed whenever someone was done using them at the end of a session. Do you believe that’s the case?

Tradibanwrote:

Not the same thing.

It’s only unnecessary according to your perspective. The hardware went in according to the same justification as the lead bolts. That’s the problem with bolting, it’s all judgements , no rules.

There are rules, at least where I live. If you're not the FA and don't have their permission then you don't get to touch their shit. If the FA is dead then you poll the core community for their input and only touch their shit after a broad consensus has been reached. 

The fact that you think there are no rules makes me think you have very little contact with the people who abide by these rules, but I've seen and heard of this happening all over the US, so although I can only speak first hand about NorCal, it certainly seems that it's standard procedure everywhere in the US. 

These rules exist to tackle exactly this kind of problem. That you don't hang out with sport developers doesn't mean they don't have rules they abide by and expect others to abide by also. 

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

Climbers have tap danced on the sacred/decaying corpse of ethics for decades 

No Ryan, as Ricky said, there is a rulebook out there somewhere and if you dont follow those rules it will upset someone, especially the purist, LNT sport climbers with power drills.

I feel as if this thread is similar to the students attempting to lecture the professors. Its actually a fairly new phenomenon in academia according to my professor friends. They say it used to be an occasional A grade student questioning them, now its a bunch of C- and D+ kids who seem to have life all figured out by age 21. 

Drilling, like Ricky has said, is nothing to take lightly. Its been said when you commit a serious crime you had better be ready to face those actions for a lifetime, embrace it even. While the rope solo drill guy may be a full on tool, he seems to not give a crap about how those holes make you feel which is his right, no?

It actually may be time to start immediately implementing legal plans at all crags, public and private now that joe shmo from the gym (who hasnt even sent a 5.9+ outdoors) can get his hands on a nice drill for so cheap, all while not even having the experience to know a good line, good rock or understanding good placements.

J Ewrote:

If I smoke one cigarette per month then I should just say fuck it and smoke 3 packs a day because hey, Pandora’s box… yeah I don’t subscribe to that faulty logic (or lackthereof)

I’m sorry to hear about the unnecessary hardware drilled into that crag, but maybe we would encounter fewer hurdles as a sport (eg. Crag closures) if we did less laughing and more educating/advocating/prevention/self enforcing…

Pebble, hammer, no internet...

And yeah, bolting at the top of the most popular summer crag in the state is laughable because there is absolutely no way this mad bolter didn't know it was #1 illegal and #2 getting chopped immediately. My guess it was a kid from a gym who borrowed his dads drill.

M Mwrote:

No Ryan, as Ricky said, there is a rulebook out there somewhere and if you dont follow those rules it will upset someone, especially the purist, LNT sport climbers with power drills.

I feel as if this thread is similar to the students attempting to lecture the professors. Its actually a fairly new phenomenon in academia according to my professor friends. They say it used to be an occasional A grade student questioning them, now its a bunch of C- and D+ kids who seem to have life all figured out by age 21. 

Drilling, like Ricky has said, is nothing to take lightly. Its been said when you commit a serious crime you had better be ready to face those actions for a lifetime, embrace it even. While the rope solo drill guy may be a full on tool, he seems to not give a crap about how those holes make you feel which is his right, no?

It actually may be time to start immediately implementing legal plans at all crags, public and private now that joe shmo from the gym (who hasnt even sent a 5.9+ outdoors) can get his hands on a nice drill for so cheap, all while not even having the experience to know a good line, good rock or understanding good placements.

I take the impact of installing a new route very seriously. Sometimes I camouflage the chains if they're visible to hikers, sometimes I use more minimal anchor hardware, sometimes I refuse to put in a route at all. Your all or nothing approach wherein you find it ludicrous that people with drills would try and minimize their impact is itself ludicrous. My area that I'm developing is a popular hiking destination and if I embraced your attitude or others came in with your attitude it is highly likely that climbing access would be seriously threatened. I know of some climbing destinations in NorCal (including one of the Bay Area's most popular crags) that are holding on to access by a thread and always have been for as long as climbing has been there. 

I am glad that more people don't share your attitude, as we'd have a lot less crags to climb at if they did. 

Seems kinda weird to drill holes on a existing route period, unless your the FA, doing something with permission of the FA (who doesn't own shit, but that's the accepted ethic), or its 1 for 1 re-bolting to upgrade the hardware (use existing holes if you can).

Regarding someone who would drill 2 holes near the ground on an existing route just to use for LRS anchor... IE someone lugging all the extra weight (drill, batt, hardware)... Its funny that someone would go through all that hassle with weight when the alternative with trees, existing bolts, etc... is soooooo much lighter, faster, and cheaper... I would assume something is not right in their head. To the point that filling in those holes may be a mistake, because someone who will go through that much hassle to drill them, may be stubborn enough to drill 2 new ones should the existing ones get filled in.

Regardless, said screw loose person is unlikely to ever see this thread, so lets move it along...

Ricky Harlinewrote:

There are rules, at least where I live. If you're not the FA and don't have their permission then you don't get to touch their shit. If the FA is dead then you poll the core community for their input and only touch their shit after a broad consensus has been reached. 

The fact that you think there are no rules makes me think you have very little contact with the people who abide by these rules, but I've seen and heard of this happening all over the US, so although I can only speak first hand about NorCal, it certainly seems that it's standard procedure everywhere in the US. 

These rules exist to tackle exactly this kind of problem. That you don't hang out with sport developers doesn't mean they don't have rules they abide by and expect others to abide by also. 

Those aren’t “rules” those are judgements, they don’t withstand logic and without logic there inevitably chaos, as shown in this very case.

Yes, conformity to the zeitgeist is a thing, doesn’t mean it’s correct.

In simplistic terms, the only “rules” sport climbers have are mob rules.

I love how the ego and entitlement of “developers” consistently exposes itself with little prodding

Tradibanwrote:

Those aren’t “rules” those are judgements, they don’t withstand logic and without logic there inevitably chaos, as shown in this very case.

Yes, conformity to the zeitgeist is a thing, doesn’t mean it’s correct.

In simplistic terms, the only “rules” sport climbers have are mob rules.

I love how the ego and entitlement of “developers” consistently exposes itself with little prodding

These rules of sport development aren't any different to the rules of trad development, home slice. And yes, they do withstand logic-- we need some system so that joe schmoe can't ruin routes and threaten access, so these rules have been developed and put in place for decades. For some reason you have a really hard time understanding that these rules also apply to sport, but these are just the rules of climbing in general. If you put up a trad route do I get to add a bolt to a runout face against your wishes because the only rules are mob rules and it's all individual judgements? 

If by ego and entitlement you mean I would like climbing to be preserved and not get shut down by the extreme irresponsibility and inconsiderate and selfish behavior of rogue individuals who are ignorant of the standard practice of development and of altering the routes of others then yes, I'm extremely entitled and have a very large ego. 

Your attitude is legitimately dangerous to preservation of access and I hope people reading your comments don't buy into your ideas which run counter to all the tradition and history of climbing both old and modern and think they can do whatever they want. Do NOT modify someone else's route or install hardware on it without permission. JFC this is pretty damn simple. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

These rules of sport development aren't any different to the rules of trad development, home slice. And yes, they do withstand logic-- we need some system so that joe schmoe can't ruin routes and threaten access, so these rules have been developed and put in place for decades. For some reason you have a really hard time understanding that these rules also apply to sport, but these are just the rules of climbing in general. If you put up a trad route do I get to add a bolt to a runout face against your wishes because the only rules are mob rules and it's all individual judgements? 

If by ego and entitlement you mean I would like climbing to be preserved and not get shut down by the extreme irresponsibility and inconsiderate and selfish behavior of rogue individuals who are ignorant of the standard practice of development and altering the routes of others then yes, I'm extremely entitled and have a very large ego. 

Your attitude is legitimately dangerous to preservation of access and I hope people reading your comments don't buy into your ideas which run counter to all the history of climbing both old and modern and think they can do whatever they want. Do NOT modify someone else's route or install hardware on it without permission. JFC this is pretty damn simple. 

Nobody got permission to put lead bolts in the first place, they don’t own the rock. Ergo, no one needs permission to change it. Unfortunate but true.

Sport climbing will always have this dilemma unless the authority with jurisdiction starts regulating bolting.

God save you all.

Tradibanwrote:

Nobody got permission to put lead bolts in the first place, they don’t own the rock. Ergo, no one needs permission to change it. Unfortunate but true.

Sport climbing will always have this dilemma unless the authority with jurisdiction starts regulating bolting.

God save you all.

The ‘rules’ which you are saying do not exist are actually ethics, and ethics do exist. The morals/principles that guide someone’s actions. Ricky is right: if we practice this sport without morals or principles, it will adversely affect access. This has already been shown to be true.

J Ewrote:

The ‘rules’ which you are saying do not exist are actually ethics, and ethics do exist. The morals/principles that guide someone’s actions. Ricky is right: if we practice this sport without morals or principles, it will adversely affect access. This has already been shown to be true.

Every trad climber agrees, it has been shown to be true with sport climbing. But that's ancient history right?

I think someone should bring this issue to a philosophy prof, an economist, an ecologist, a lawyer, and a 5yo kid (ELI5: Explain Like I'm 5) all in the same room... and see how they would approach it. It would be entertaining, excepting private land cases such as Horseshoe Canyon Ranch (which presumably we are not considering in this case), no one owns the rock. Drilling and adding hardware is in some spectrum of outright destructive vandalism to positive recreation activities depending on the view of whatever land manager is in charge, at the time.

Morals and principles... or generally accepted guidelines of how to approach bolting, climbing, etc... are accepted by many, and disregarded or not known by many.

See also: music at crags, wagbags, dogs off leash, large groups, no vegetation at the base of boulders, feeding wildlife, mylar baloons, etc... tragedy of the commons, etc...