New and Experienced climbers over 50 ##24

Oh man… this morning is NOT GOOD.   I’m pretty wiped out head to toe.  (Or as one of my kids would say “Tore up from the floor up.”)

I hope the gang is having a great time at COR!  

I’m still thinking about why we are fat. Even Tony has gotten riled up over a commercial on TV where dozens of obese people are dancing like crazy all to promote a drug for weight loss. I don’t think obesity is due to just one thing but I sure am looking at the big obvious endocrine disruptors. Makes me want to periodically unload. The good news about phthalates is that they clear the system within 24 hours so you can lighten the burden with a little abstinence. But the things like cadmium in dark chocolate stay in the body 30 years and there’s no way to get rid of it.  Both Consumer Reports and Consumer Labs each published independent studies on cadmium and lead in chocolate this year, and the conclusion was that even 1 ounce of most dark chocolate a day  puts the average adult way over the limit for safety. A case could be made that unhealthy aging and obesity are at least in part due to the accumulation  of crap in the body. Hopefully the next generation will be smarter than we were.  (Since this article is from a paid subscription I can’t provide a link, but I can provide the references if needed).

This is a sample page from Consumer Reports out if easily 100 pages.  

This source says only a small amount of cadmium remains in the body after eating foods contaminated with cadmium.  I think it’s best not to overthink these things too much, otherwise we’d end up eating nothing, drinking nothing and doing nothing. Eat, drink and be merry I say!

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/cadmium#

So I did a few calculations.

The ATSDR (agency for toxic substances disease registry, an agency in the CDC) says that based on renal data, a human can ingest 0.0002 mg/kg/day chronically without any health risk.  For me that would be 0.011 mg or 11 ug.

For some reason CA has different standards and limits oral exposure to 4.1 ug/day.

The average dark chocolate bar in the US contains on average 7.6 ug per oz.  Theo's (a brand that I like) extra dark contains 5.74 ug per oz, between the 2 values considered "safe".

1 oz chocolate is typically 1/3 of a chocolate bar.  If I have a serving for a snack, I typically have a 1/2 oz, which is a large sq and plenty, since it's very intense, and I certainly don't eat any kind of snack on a daily basis.  But by federal standards I could eat 3.8 X my typical portion size on a daily basis and be completely fine.

its a good thing that I am both completely clueless to what you guys are talking about and I don't live in CA cause I eat a shit tonn of 60% and 72% dark chocolate.. 

phylp phylpwrote:

So I did a few calculations.

The ATSDR (agency for toxic substances disease registry, an agency in the CDC) says that based on renal data, a human can ingest 0.0002 mg/fg/day chronically without any health risk.  For me that would be 0.011 mg or 11 ug.

For some reason CA has different standards and limits oral exposure to 4.1 ug/day.

The average dark chocolate bar in the US contains on average 7.6 ug per oz.  Theo's (a brand that I like) extra dark contains 5.74 ug per oz, between the 2 values considered "safe".

1 oz chocolate is typically 1/3 of a chocolate bar.  If I have a serving for a snack, I typically have a 1/2 oz, which is a large sq and plenty, since it's very intense, and I certainly don't eat any kind of snack on a daily basis.  But by federal standards I could eat 3.8 X my typical portion size on a daily basis and be completely fine.

I love that you did this, Phylp!  It’s not to be paranoid or rigid but to consider the data and decide. When both Consumer Reports and Consumer Labs put out warning reports this year I paid attention.  Dark chocolate is something I do eat every day, unless I put the brakes on. I’d probably also be eating tuna 2 or 3 times a week.

Another group, As You Sow.org, publishes their own exhaustive chocolate report annually and it’s pretty depressing.  One thing I’ve noticed is that the highest levels of lead and cadmium vary each time… choosing the best chocolate this year doesn’t mean it will have the same levels next year.  It probably is because they source raw products from different places each year.  So choosing by report is no guarantee.  What’s clear is that it could be changed—there are ways to reduce heavy metals in chocolate (and arsenic in rice and mercury in tuna) if the companies knew people cared.

The body retains cadmium for 30 years. It does accumulate.  I appreciate the organizations that are doing the testing and are advocating for change.  Like EWG (Environmental Working Group), As You Sow, Million Marker and so many more, 

I’m with Nick and Carl on this. I try to eat carefully and, mostly, in moderation—actually it is my wife who makes sure that I do, but really don’t pay attention to most of the ‘warnings’. As  Carl said, if we pay too much attention we wouldn’t eat or drink anything. Besides the warnings and advisories frequently change—even reverse themselves. I recall reading that dark chocolate was good for you, now, apparently, some are saying otherwise. Same with red wine and many other things—some of them the very things that add enjoyment to life. In the end, it mostly depends on genes and luck ( for most people) —-and consuming things in moderation. My health hasn’t been perfect and I can’t climb 5.13 ( or 12, or, these days, not 11 either ) but I’m still ‘here’, still active, still climbing, and still enjoying a good meal and wine without worrying too much about it.

I too agree with Carl, Nick and Alan. Maintaining an overall healthy diet and exercise is what matters. 

Fad supplements, diets, etc. are mostly just noise (absent a diagnosed medical condition). 

Alan is correct; genes, luck and moderation play the biggest roles.

Alan Rubinwrote:

I’m with Nick and Carl on this. I try to eat carefully and, mostly, in moderation—actually it is my wife who makes sure that I do, but really don’t pay attention to most of the ‘warnings’. As  Carl said, if we pay too much attention we wouldn’t eat or drink anything. Besides the warnings and advisories frequently change—even reverse themselves. I recall reading that dark chocolate was good for you, now, apparently, some are saying otherwise. Same with red wine and many other things—some of them the very things that add enjoyment to life. In the end, it mostly depends on genes and luck ( for most people) —-and consuming things in moderation. My health hasn’t been perfect and I can’t climb 5.13 ( or 12, or, these days, not 11 either ) but I’m still ‘here’, still active, still climbing, and still enjoying a good meal and wine without worrying too much about it.

Ha ha. Wives are important aren’t they? Without mine I’d be a climbing version of Keith Moon crossed with Iggy Pop crossed with Hunter S Thompson.
My wife has more of an effect on my general well being than journal articles. 

Lori, you should look into nihilism.  It makes for easy carefree days.

It’s an interesting sort of related subject: Tony is leaving for Chicago for three weeks, and I wanted to know if he has left any written instructions or power of attorney “in case“. What if you were to have an accident or have a stroke? He said something along the lines of“you can’t constantly worry that you may die.“ Where the hell did he get that?  I’m not “worried “… to me this is business. 

We’ve kind of covered all this before on this thread and I gladly concede that if you have basically good health and aren’t too worried about aging and decline, eat drink, and be merry!  Once I’ve kind of cleared out the fairly questionable stuff I have a pretty ordinary diet. 

But I’ve been in the position now three times in my life where someone close to me got sick and died (or just suddenly died) who did not leave any kind of written instruction, and it was a scramble to establish who was in charge, etc. Families engaged in protracted battles because there was nothing in writing.  A few years ago I completed my “departure file“ so there will be no questions about what to do if I fall off a rock or get hit by sniper fire from my neighbor.   Just open up this little folder and it’s all laid out. (Along with all the legal docs). For me this is the best anxiety-reliever and it’s a kindness to the people that I love. I’m not gonna push it with Tony. He’s 74 and bulletproof.

Binge watching HBOs Love and Death.  Anyone else watching?  

I’m facing a dilemma today. I was planning on heading back up north for a couple of weeks to be with my family and get some real swim time at the lake but my tomato plants are going wild. I keep waiting for the invasion of horn worms and other horrid bugs so I can give up and walk away, but so far it hasn’t happened.  I have a 6 foot sunflower and six tomato plants that are loaded with tomatoes—easily 100. If I leave for a couple of weeks, I’m sure I’ll come back to nothing positive. I trust Russ’ local expertise on the tomatoes and today I will get the BT and spray these bushes, but so far there’s not a single worm on these plants. If I leave, I guess I have to just throw my hands up and let them go.

Jan, how are your tomatoes this year?

Plus, for the first time since the contest began I could win the Sunflower Growing Contest.  

Temperatures are really mild here still.  How is the weather everywhere else?

what tomorrow’s temperatures may mean is that one of the hottest walls in the park could be protected from too much heat and we can climb there. I’ve been really enjoying learning this vertical face climbing, but I miss getting into a deep flow on steep slab. I really like that experience of “nothing“ and moving through it. Maybe Russ is right… Could steep slab be the nihilism of climbing? Or as rgold called it “desperate slab”. The more desperate it is the more I like it!  

Lori, tomatoes would be about 10 feet tall if my cages went that high.  Taking over everything.  This is only half of them.  That is a 4x8 foot raised bed and the fence is 6 feet tall.

Jan Mcwrote:

Lori, tomatoes would be about 10 feet tall if my cages went that high.  Taking over everything.  This is only half of them.  That is a 4x8 foot raised bed and the fence is 6 feet tall.

I'm very bummed that I did not plant some purple and yellow heirlooms.  I think I just grabbed the starts they had at Home Depot and was grateful for anything that might grow here.  So I have beefsteaks and Big Boy... I'm still hoping they taste great.  Yours are beautiful!  

Lori Milaswrote:

It’s an interesting sort of related subject: Tony is leaving for Chicago for three weeks, and I wanted to know if he has left any written instructions or power of attorney “in case“. What if you were to have an accident or have a stroke? He said something along the lines of“you can’t constantly worry that you may die.“ Where the hell did he get that?  I’m not “worried “… to me this is business. 

A lot of people have superstitious ideas that planning for death somehow invites it. As if not putting a trust or a will in place is somehow a magic spell against the inevitable. I've found that the best approach is to say, "I really want to be sure that if you die unexpectedly in a tragedy or are injured and unable to make your own medical decisions that I know what your wishes are for _____ and _____ and ____ so that we get it right. Can we sit down and write something up?"

Andrew Ricewrote:

A lot of people have superstitious ideas that planning for death somehow invites it. As if not putting a trust or a will in place is somehow a magic spell against the inevitable. I've found that the best approach is to say, "I really want to be sure that if you die unexpectedly in a tragedy or are injured and unable to make your own medical decisions that I know what your wishes are for _____ and _____ and ____ so that we get it right. Can we sit down and write something up?"

Yes. That is the sane thing to do.  Don't know that I can make that happen...     We have been having that conversation, Tony believes that he could make his wishes known if and when anything should happen.  For some reason, this all makes sense to him.

The reason I linked this discussion to the food/diet discussion is because of the idea that 'discussing' or even mentioning concerns or wishes appears to be 'obsessing'.  One lovely part of being in a relationship as an older person is that I can more easily let it all go... so can he.  

But I know from hard experience that if anything should happen to Tony while he is visiting his family in Chicago... I likely would never see him again.  They have not loved the idea of him being away.  They have strong family belief that  you 'take care of' your parent, in the home, til the very end.  If said parent is laid out with broken bones, or a stroke... as examples... that would be that. I am just going to have to live with that possibility.  

Re. Suicide rates of dentists... I also found quite a few studies pro and con.  Some felt it was a myth.  Other studies (mainly from Switzerland) confirmed that it's true.  The issue... the ONLY issue really, is the amount of mercury exposure that would cause dentists to become severally mentally disabled.  The amounts of mercury in the brains of dentists (at least in the 80's) was very high.  It was completely due to breathing in mercury vapors all day, every day when they place amalgam fillings, which are 50% mercury.  In fact, bitd it was dangerous to even BE in a dentist's office because the air was also quite toxic.  Today it is rare to see a dentist placing amalgam fillings in anyone's mouth.  Maybe they wised up.  But the point was... watch out for your mercury exposure.  It's VERY hard to get rid of once it's in the body.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/bcpt.13199
"The present Review reveals a significant occurrence of neurological and sensory symptoms in dental workers occupationally exposed to chronic, low levels of metallic Hg. Dental personnel have a higher Hg exposure compared with control groups. Some studies have reported a high prevalence of memory disturbance among dentists and dental personnel compared with the general population. Studies based on different neuropsychological tests showed a remarkable relationship between chronic Hg exposure and neurological symptoms, although studies that used questionnaires revealed a moderate or even no link between CNS symptoms and dental work. There is no distinct neurophysiological test for effects of chronic low to moderate Hg exposure. However, compared with non-Hg-exposed individuals, dental personnel reported more often neurobehavioural problems, reduced psychomotor speed, reduced cognitive flexibility, attention deficits, as well as memory loss, fatigue and sleep problems. Of these symptoms, memory loss may be the most important. Dental personnel's exposure to Hg during their work with dental amalgam may provide a reasonable explanation for these findings. In light of these findings and the continued and increasing use of dental amalgams in many parts of the world, preventive measures to reduce Hg exposure and prevent deleterious effects are certainly in place"

I had a not-so-unplesant visit to the dentist today which got me thinking about the exchange between Lori and EE here about suicide rate among dentists.  
Once the numbness wore off, I looked it up and found this somewhat current paper from McGill's Office for Science and Society - https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health/dentists-and-suicide-look-numbers

CDC's older numbers do not single out dentistry but those in health care in general are not more at risk, except for females in nursing, psychiatric, and home health (of which there are many!).

Looks like the myth about dentist suicide rate went unchallenged for years and many bought into it as it became ingrained and widespread.

Lori Milaswrote:

Yes. That is the sane thing to do.  Don't know that I can make that happen...     We have been having that conversation, Tony believes that he could make his wishes known if and when anything should happen.  For some reason, this all makes sense to him.

Maybe he's just angling for you to ask for his hand in marriage?

Lori Milaswrote:

  But the point was... watch out for your mercury exposure.  It's VERY hard to get rid of once it's in the body.

This is true for most forms of heavy metal poisoning.
Here is a short primer on the subject from the Cleveland Clinic - https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/23424-heavy-metal-poisoning-toxicity 

I have a little fetish. This whole formation “Cereal Wall” looks creepy and old, crumbling and exciting.  The route Trix 10b/c (righthand spire) is the one I want to climb, I don’t know if anyone has ever climbed it since Bob Gaines put it up in 2003. Anyway, its in shade in the morning so maybe today, or soon, I can give it a go.  I can’t count how many times I’ve pulled off the road to wander over and check it out. 

I’ve been listening to a discussion (Honnolds podcast) on climbing as adventure vs sport/athletics.  How about climbing as beauty, curiosity and art?  What makes the best routes for you? 

the best routes for me are asthetic, have good exposure and are within my ability range..